Atheistic world view

[Fidei Defensor]

Lord, help me

So, basically, Ive been struggling for a long time with doubts about God's existence. But, prayerfully, I have decided that in order to help myself and my fears of atheist arguments, that I must look at the arguments, and decide for myself, rather than just reading all pro-theistic arguments in order to "pad my faith."

So, really, I made this thread to ask questions, and seek answers.

I will be playing the devil's advocate. Now to my questions:

Does the fact that matter can be neither created nor destroyed add evidence to an infinite and eternally existing universe?

Does everything in the universe have a cause, and does everything need a cause?

Is it possible that the universe has always existed?

and, is it possible that time has always existed?

Sorry for so many questions. Feel free to answer just a few at a time. It will help me greatly to discuss these things.

[Fidei Defensor]

bump.

Anyone? I kind of need to start discussing soon, because the longer I sit and think of these objections, the more drawn I am to atheism...

[Socrates]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 03:04 PM']Lord, help me

So, basically, Ive been struggling for a long time with doubts about God's existence. But, prayerfully, I have decided that in order to help myself and my fears of atheist arguments, that I must look at the arguments, and decide for myself, rather than just reading all pro-theistic arguments in order to "pad my faith."

So, really, I made this thread to ask questions, and seek answers.

I will be playing the devil's advocate.  Now to my questions:

Does the fact that matter can be neither created nor destroyed add evidence to an infinite and eternally existing universe?

Does everything in the universe have a cause, and does everything need a cause?

Is it possible that the universe has always existed?

and, is it possible that time has always existed?

Sorry for so many questions. Feel free to answer just a few at a time. It will help me greatly to discuss these things.
[right][snapback]867921[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
[quote]Does the fact that matter can be neither created nor destroyed add evidence to an infinite and eternally existing universe?[/quote]
Absolutely not. God is outside His creation, and these laws only apply within the physical (created) universe. If God could not create, He would not be God. God cannot be bound by the physical universe.

[quote]Does everything in the universe have a cause, and does everything need a cause?[/quote]
In short, yes.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104400.htm"]Here's what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about it.[/url]


[quote]Is it possible that the universe has always existed?

and, is it possible that time has always existed?[/quote]
It would be foolish to think so. The universe (and time is the measure of change in the universe) cannot be its own cause. (See Aquinas.)

[Guest Rick777]

Most scientists believe that the universe did not always exist.

[Semalsia]

I would answer no to all of the questions. Just my humble opinion.

But I don't see how those could lead you to atheism. Why would events in the natural world disprove events in the supernatural world?

[cpp]

[quote]Is it possible that the universe has always existed? and, is it possible that time has always existed?[/quote]
In order to answer that, I suggest to follow this line of reasoning:

[b]1. God acts by will and not by a necessity of His nature.[/b]
St. Thomas Aquinas proves it in three ways. The 'easiest' to understand is the first: [quote]"since both intellect and nature act for an end, as proved in Phys. ii, 49, the natural agent must have the end and the necessary means predetermined for it by some higher intellect; as the end and definite movement is predetermined for the arrow by the archer. Hence the intellectual and voluntary agent must precede the agent that acts by nature. Hence, since God is first in the order of agents, He must act by intellect and will."[/quote]

[b]2. The existence of things depend on the will of God.[/b]
This is equivalent to say "the will of God is the cause of things", God being the [i]cause[/i], and things being the [i]effect[/i]. Again this is proved by the Angelic Doctor in the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/101904.htm"]Summa Theologica, 19.4[/url].

[b]3. It is not necessary (in the sense of absolute necessity) that God had always willed the existence of things[/b]
Because, by His very nature, God only wills Himself. He is the Supreme Good - all other goods are inferior to Him. Therefore, He can't absolutely will anything inferior to Himself by (absolute) necessity. This is further explained in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/101903.htm"]íbid., 19.3[/url].

[b]4. Ergo,[/b]
If God doesn't necessarily willed the existence of things from all eternity, therefore it cannot be proved by demostration that things have always existed, as [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104601.htm"]St. Thomas explains.[/url]

[b]Moreover,[/b]
It seems to be that there is something like a problem of "philosophical scope"; since we are [i]in[/i] time and [i]in[/i] the universe, we cannot observe the world from outside; we can just derive conclusions from i. the observations of the created things, and ii. the revelation of the Creator of all things. St. Thomas goes on and explains that the proposition of that things started to exist and have not always existed is an [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104602.htm"]article of faith[/url] supported by public Revelation.

[b]Finally,[/b]
May I suggest lots of prayer: not "talking with yourself" nor "a time for being alone". I say fasting and prayers in spirit of obedience to the Lord. I strongly emphasize [b][u]fasting[/u][/b], as strongly as I can emphasize a word in a phorum. Although I don't know your name, I will offer my following Rosary for your battle. May our Lady, spes nostra, sedes sapientiae, pray for you.

[sraf]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 02:04 PM']Lord, help me

So, basically, Ive been struggling for a long time with doubts about God's existence. But, prayerfully, I have decided that in order to help myself and my fears of atheist arguments, that I must look at the arguments, and decide for myself, rather than just reading all pro-theistic arguments in order to "pad my faith."

So, really, I made this thread to ask questions, and seek answers.

I will be playing the devil's advocate.  Now to my questions:

[right][snapback]867921[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Struggling with doubts about God's existence is perfectly normal, and healthy, I'd say. And asking questions is the best road to knowledge. So! Without further ado -
[quote]Does the fact that matter can be neither created nor destroyed add evidence to an infinite and eternally existing universe?[/quote]
Yes. I mean, if everything that is in this universe was here from the beginning, that sort of means that things won't change. The substance of things may change - in a sort of "If all the world were water and all the water were ink - " if now the world were 40% matter and 60% energy, but then it switched to be 30% matter and 70% energy, the universe would still be here. Infinity is a kind of a scary concept, but it makes sense, in a way - a limited universe is even scarier than an unlimited one.

[quote]Does everything in the universe have a cause, and does everything need a cause?[/quote]
Some biologists study the 'niches' of organisms. Every organism's life, death, and birth has a place in the whole ecosystem it belongs to, and ultimately to the biosphere (Earth) itself. For example, sunlight is taken by phytoplankton in the ocean, which are eaten by the zooplankton. Zooplankton are eaten by a balleen whale - the whale may be giving a free ride to a host of barnacles, who do not harm the whale, but for their part get a nice living arrangement. Afterwards, the whale dies and sinks to the ocean floor and becomes part of the soil - which becomes home to the phytoplankton.
Disney called it 'The Circle of Life.' There's a lot more to it, but I'm not a biologist, I just find this interesting.

[quote]Is it possible that the universe has always existed?[/quote] Universe was probably made from the Big Bang. However, the [i]cosmos[/i], which includes this universe and everything outside of this universe, I would say, from a scientific standpoint, has existed forever.

[quote]and, is it possible that time has always existed?[/quote] For myself... I say "If there isn't time, what in heaven or hell else is there?" For the real scientfic, then I'd say that time has existed as long as there has been [i]something[/i] for time to affect.

"You can't just act, you have to think, you can't just think, you have to listen."

[philothea]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 03:04 PM']Lord, help me

So, basically, Ive been struggling for a long time with doubts about God's existence. But, prayerfully, I have decided that in order to help myself and my fears of atheist arguments, that I must look at the arguments, and decide for myself, rather than just reading all pro-theistic arguments in order to "pad my faith."

So, really, I made this thread to ask questions, and seek answers.
[/quote]
This is the thread for me. I was once an atheist, and I am very skeptical.

I will be playing the devil's advocate. Now to my questions:

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 03:04 PM']Does the fact that matter can be neither created nor destroyed add evidence to an infinite and eternally existing universe?
[/quote]
Observations do not support an infinite and eternally existing universe. All scientific evidence points toward a specific beginning.

Also, the "neither created nor destroyed" is a very simplistic model of physics. Matter can be turned into energy and back again. Virtual particles and be (briefly) created from nothing. Matter and energy both can be sucked into black holes and apparently vanish from the known universe.

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 03:04 PM']Does everything in the universe have a cause, and does everything need a cause?
[/quote]
This is a philisophical question, rather than a scientific one, unless you narrowly define "cause."

As far as we know, everything in the macro-scale has a cause, but it may not be directly discernible or exactly predictible.

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 03:04 PM']Is it possible that the universe has always existed?
[/quote]
Not unless someone entity cheating somewhere. The evolution of stars is easily observed, and it does not seem to be static. In the past, cosmologists occasionally posited a cyclical universe with a big bang, an expansion, a contraction, and then another bang. Given current knowledge, this now this seems impossible. The universe is not only expanding, the rate of expansion is accelerating.

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 03:04 PM']and, is it possible that time has always existed?
[/quote]
In our modern relativistic understanding of the universe, time and space are the same thing. Time began when the universe began. Both have the same distinct starting point.

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 03:04 PM']Sorry for so many questions. Feel free to answer just a few at a time. It will help me greatly to discuss these things.
[right][snapback]867921[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I have no idea if I helped any, or what kind of answers you were looking for. Feel free to ask for clarification!

[Snarf]

[i]Does the fact that matter can be neither created nor destroyed add evidence to an infinite and eternally existing universe?[/i]

An atheist would reply that because there was no time before the big bang, then no, this would not render the universe "infinite". It would not be said to be "eternal" in the sense of expanding infinitely into the past and future, as it would be nonsensical to talk about there being time before the bang. As for the future, I find it most likely (id est, absurd to think otherwise) that time will eventually stop for natural reasons. So, the laws of thermodynamics re: conservation of matter/energy have little to say about the infinitude/eternity (or lack thereof) of the universe.

However, it is along this thread that I wrote my own proof for God's existence, which I posted here a few months ago and included in my book. Basically, what I say is that looking at the big bang is sensible only when you look at fractions of femtoseconds AFTER the "bang", but it is scientifically unsound to posit there ever having been a T=0 of the evolution. That is, you can go back to T=1^-40 of the big bang, but you can't go much further. The reason is that the transpiration of time relies on the kinetics of spacetime, and at the hypothetical T=0 there could not have possibly been any such motion.

The caveat is that one branch of M-Theory says that it could be that the universe is one of an indeterminate (that is, epistemologically infinite) number of "branes" that operate within a construct of time outside of that pertaining to our universe. On the scale of once in a trillion years (no, I'm not making this up on my own), it is said, one brane could collide with another and the resulting transfer of energy would set off a Big Bang.

The problem with accepting this as a dejection of God's Creation is that while it replaces the atheistic problem of there being no T=0, it brings metaphysics back to Aquinas. That is, while it's possible to speculate that if there were some T=0 that suddenly banged in order to remove the need for an Aristotelian/Thomist Prime Mover, talking about an infinite series of branes irrevocably throws the question back at metaphysics and sets the need for a first cause.

So, in regards to conservation of mass/energy, the net result is that existence itself is irrational, and this quirk of being necessitates something that transcends reason.

[i]Does everything in the universe have a cause, and does everything need a cause?[/i]

As a strict determinist, I say yes. It's beyond human comprehension to determine the cause of everything, but we are doing a good job of finding the modus operandi behind the workings of the universe. As a Coeternalist, it's my opinion that everything is the metaphysical consequence of everything else, so it is through gaining insight into the relationships between bodies, actions, and perceptions that we find meaning in existence.

Ultimately, God is the final cause of everything. To remove God would be to say that the universe banged out of no necessity, which is logically inchoate.

[i]Is it possible that the universe has always existed?[/i]
See above.

[i]and, is it possible that time has always existed?[/i]
According to General Relativity, NO. For the transpiration of time to take place in a given region, the gravitational force must be below a certain threshold. At the hypothetical T=0 of the universe, all of space was contained in a singularity that, if it had gravity, would slow time down to nothing. However, from what I understand gravity was a non-issue until a certain time ATB, but that just returns us to square one in that time must have been curled up into the early universe with no possibility of expansion until the spatial dimensions became unfurled.

[Laudate_Dominum]

:applause:

[rkwright]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jan 27 2006, 04:04 PM']Lord, help me

So, basically, Ive been struggling for a long time with doubts about God's existence. But, prayerfully, I have decided that in order to help myself and my fears of atheist arguments, that I must look at the arguments, and decide for myself, rather than just reading all pro-theistic arguments in order to "pad my faith."

So, really, I made this thread to ask questions, and seek answers.

I will be playing the devil's advocate.  Now to my questions:

Does the fact that matter can be neither created nor destroyed add evidence to an infinite and eternally existing universe?

Does everything in the universe have a cause, and does everything need a cause?

Is it possible that the universe has always existed?

and, is it possible that time has always existed?

Sorry for so many questions. Feel free to answer just a few at a time. It will help me greatly to discuss these things.
[right][snapback]867921[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


You've already gotten some good responses on this, some pretty in depth.. there was another thread on this I started in the word and apologetics called [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=46154"]Aquinas vs The Infinite Chain[/url]. There are some good responses over there that should help with your infinte regress problem.

Also, (I may be mistaken here...I'm no science major...) I'm pretty sure the law of mass/energy conservation has a 1st premise that most people leave out yet I find pretty important. Something like... In a system in which no new mass or energy are introduced, then no new mass or energy will be created or destroyed.

Edited January 28, 2006 by rkwright

[Snarf]

Well, yes, for the Conservation of Energy law to remain meaningful, it has to refer to a "closed system". Barring a many-braned multiverse, the universe itself could be described as a "closed system".

I haven't studied it formally yet (I don't take quantum physics for another year or so, I'm in Modern Physics now), but at the level of "quantum foam" matter can indeed formulate itself spontaneously out of the fabric of spacetime. I ASSUME that this relies on the energy constant that permeates all of spacetime, so I wouldn't count on a bullet suddenly materializing inside your head. That'd be a great way to go, however.

One of my friends at the UofC commented, "What I don't like about quantum physics is that there is a non-zero probability that I'll suddenly explode for no reason." In one of my classes we calculated the probability of being able to move a car over a hill using barrier tunneling rather than just driving. In short, don't count on it happening.

Eck, I got distracted. Sorry, I just find this stuff fun.