Hamas takes control in Palestine

[amdgboomer]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 27 2006, 09:33 PM']...The formation of Israel is the reason for soo much of the disorder and chaos in the Middle East. If Israel wipes out all the Palestinian extremists, it'll only get more enemies.[/quote]

First, the formation of israel isn't the reason for the disorder of the middle east. Israel was formed in an area with a constant history of disorder. For example, Saddam came to power in Iraq through carrying out a very, very violent "campaign", and immediately after siezing power murdered a few more parliamentarians to scare the others from opposing him. Heck, go way back to how Saladin came to power. Warfare, murder and treachery. The Middle East has been in a constant state of turmoil for millenia. The formation of Israel just gives warring factions/tribes someone else to target.

Second, suggesting that Israel wiping out Hamas and other extremist groups will only engender more terrorism and violence is like suggesting that the US hunting down Al Qaeda will only engender more terrorism, and that perhaps we should just leave them alone. Of course we shouldn't. There is no coexistence with Al Qaeda and the US. The two are diametrically opposed. The same is true of Israel and Hamas. Hamas, as it states in its charter, exists for the destruction of Israel. Their purpose for existing is to destroy the Israelis. Israel, however, wants to exist. The two can't coexist. Sooner or later, one of them will have to go, and whether or not this might anger other islamic extremists, Israel doesn't have much choice but fight.

The real tragedy of Hamas taking power is it seals the fate of so many people. So many Israeli soldiers will now have to face the increased risk of death because the extreme fringe group is now the Palestinian government, making the Palestinian Authority officially an enemy state. So many Palestinian civilians face the risk of being unintentionally caught in the crossfire. So many Israeli civilians face the risk of being intentionally targeted in their day to day lives. And last, but by no means least, the Palestinian Christians are stuck between a rock and a hard place, being neither Israeli nor muslim extremists.

[Mercy me]

I think that it is very important to remember that ther is a hugh difference between being in opposition and governing. While Hamas might have the rhetoric down and they certainly know how to use weapons they have yet to display anything that would lead me to believe that they have the skills to administer a small town much less the Palistinian Authority land. We must continue to pray for these people and I mean all of them.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 27 2006, 09:33 PM']They are the reason why we have so much unrest in the Middle East in the first place.
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No they're not. The unrest in the middle east started in the seventh century with Mohammed.

Ok... so the wars between Iran and Iraq all those years were from the Jews?

Lebanon because of the Jews?

The unrest in the middle east is due to islam.

Thank God for the Crusades because if it wasn't for the first 8 of them Europe would have been slaughtered or become islamic. The last 3 were run by a king and not the Pope.

Muslims are as much our brethern as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc... they are further from the Truth than protestants.

The problems are due to islam and no other. They sacked our Churches, killed our priests, etc...

"Jihad" wear? There is a serious lack of logic with someone who would promote jihad wear as a good thing.


[quote]I seriously believe the only solution that is just is if both lived side by side. Israel has the whole Middle East after it. The formation of Israel is the reason for soo much of the disorder and chaos in the Middle East. If Israel wipes out all the Palestinian extremists, it'll only get more enemies.[/quote]

The disorder has been there since the seventh century. The muslims will never live side by side with Jews in harmony.

[philothea]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 28 2006, 03:19 PM']True, I believe Osama woulda probably still hated us tho.
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Osama was created by the USA. Perhaps if we didn't take crazy guys in and train them as rebels and spies we wouldn't have so many problems.

[amdgboomer]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jan 28 2006, 11:54 PM']Osama was created by the USA.  Perhaps if we didn't take crazy guys in and train them as rebels and spies we wouldn't have so many problems.
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Let's keep it relevant, folks.

But to bring it back [u][i]and[/i][/u] address the last post all at once: as far as Bin Laden goes, the bigger influence on the young Bin Laden was actually (and ironically) a Palestinian terrorist, Abdallah Azzam. [i]Azzam, Bin Laden's spiritual mentor, was from "the Muslim Brotherhood", the terrorist group which later formed Hamas[/i].

It's a huge point- Bin Laden's primary ideological influence was among the forefathers of Hamas.

[musturde]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jan 28 2006, 09:31 PM']No they're not. The unrest in the middle east started in the seventh century with Mohammed.

Ok... so the wars between Iran and Iraq all those years were from the Jews?

Lebanon because of the Jews?
[/quote]
Actually Lebanon yes. The Palestinians wouldn't have tried to make their own state within Lebanon had Israel not been formed. Israel also participated in the Lebanese Civil War. I would also say the forming of Israel is the direct reason why the Civil War happened in the first place.

[quote]The unrest in the middle east is due to islam.[/quote]
To an extent that is true but not always genuinly. People use Islam as an excuse for political agendas. I don't believe the terrorists are following Islam. Some sects have issues with each other and war with eachother for that reason but I doubt many of the leaders who quote the Koran, use it for the sake of their own gain.
[quote]Muslims are as much our brethern as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc... they are further from the Truth than protestants.
[/quote]
That's true and forgive me if thats a direct responce to something I said but
what does that have to do with anything? If your my brother would I let it go if you stole something from a stranger? No matter who's your brother, it's not okay to just allow someone to take something away in such a way and say that persons in the right.

[quote]The problems are due to islam and no other [/quote]
The thing is, you must realize that you can't take the whole Koran literally. There are good people in pagan religions and horrible people in good religions. It depends on how the person follows the religion, not the religion itself. Take the Bible, logically a lot of the Old Testament is symbolic or metaphorical.

[quote]"Jihad" wear? There is a serious lack of logic with someone who would promote jihad wear as a good thing.[/quote]
Jihad means internal struggle. Some Christians name their children Jihad. However, I didn't really like that shirt on there. I might get an I love Allah one.

[quote]The disorder has been there since the seventh century. The muslims will never live side by side with Jews in harmony.
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You mean PALESTINIANS will never with side by side with Israelis in harmony. The truth is, much of the Muslim population doesn't care about Jews. In fact they are told to respect them and Christians as people of the Bible. Many Muslims have problems with the Israelis (it's not Jews in General). I'm just correcting the way you worded it. However I agree with what you (hopefully) meant to say. That Palestinians and the Jews will most likely never be able to live side by side in Israel.

[musturde]

[quote name='amdgboomer' date='Jan 28 2006, 04:22 PM']First, the formation of israel isn't the reason for the disorder of the middle east.  Israel was formed in an area with a constant history of disorder.  For example, Saddam came to power in Iraq through carrying out a very, very violent "campaign", and immediately after siezing power murdered a few more parliamentarians to scare the others from opposing him.  Heck, go way back to how Saladin came to power.  Warfare, murder and treachery.  The Middle East has been in a constant state of turmoil for millenia.  The formation of Israel just gives warring factions/tribes someone else to target.  [/quote]
The idea of the formation of Israel isn't justified because Sadam's a ruthless dictator. What kind of logic is that? Sure the area has unrest, is that an invitation for even more unrest?

[quote]Second, suggesting that Israel wiping out Hamas and other extremist groups will only engender more terrorism and violence is like suggesting that the US hunting down Al Qaeda will only engender more terrorism, and that perhaps we should just leave them alone.  Of course we shouldn't.  There is no coexistence with Al Qaeda and the US.  The two are diametrically opposed.  The same is true of Israel and Hamas.  Hamas, as it states in its charter, exists for the destruction of Israel.  Their purpose for existing is to destroy the Israelis.  Israel, however, wants to exist.  The two can't coexist.  Sooner or later, one of them will have to go, and whether or not this might anger other islamic extremists, Israel doesn't have much choice but fight.  [/quote]
I was only saying it'd get more enemies. It's true, if Israel kills off a lot more palestinians, people will feel sorry for them and more Muslims will unite against Israel. It's not really a mathematical equation, there's no definite solution to this problem.

[quote]The real tragedy of Hamas taking power is it seals the fate of so many people.  So many Israeli soldiers will now have to face the increased risk of death because the extreme fringe group is now the Palestinian government, making the Palestinian Authority officially an enemy state.  So many Palestinian civilians face the risk of being unintentionally caught in the crossfire.  So many Israeli civilians face the risk of being intentionally targeted in their day to day lives.  And last, but by no means least, the Palestinian Christians are stuck between a rock and a hard place, being neither Israeli nor muslim extremists.
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I agree, it's a shame their in power.

[musturde]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jan 28 2006, 09:54 PM']Osama was created by the USA.  Perhaps if we didn't take crazy guys in and train them as rebels and spies we wouldn't have so many problems.
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lol yeah that kinda was our fault.

[journeyman]

The state of Israel was created by the United Nations in 1948 - partially in compensation for the horrors of the holocost, and partially as a geopolitical move on the part of France and Britain, who were finding the Arab States harder to administer after WW II than they had been before.

Israel did not drive the Palestinians out of Israel, they left in order to be out of the way when the other Arab states came roaring in and destroyed the infant Jewish state. The Eight Day War was supposed to last about that amount of time, but, by the Palestinian's standards, the wrong side won. Someone forgot to tell Israel, which did not roll over and play dead according to plan, but actually defended its new state - a novel concept for a world used to the more pacifist view of the Jews.

Admitted, during the years between 1945 and 1948, the Jewish underground did some things that resemble terrorism.

This is not a new conflict. Read your old testament - the Philistines who attacked the Kingdom of Saul and David are the Palestinians of today.

[son_of_angels]

First of all, I always wonder about the teaching concerning self defense in the Catechism, primarily because it doesn't take martyrdom into consideration at all. When should you not resist in order to make a statement? What about the martyrs who, because of their zeal, died for the faith and even held their children still so they could die a martyr's death as well? I simply have always felt that the perceived right to personal defense should be curtailed, while the right of a nation to exercise its civil defense should be supported more by the church.

Secondly, regarding the subject at hand, it seems that we have stopped defining the Palestinians as either Christian or Muslim, preferring a man-created ethnicity over the unity of the Church. This is not about an ethnicity, this is about the control of a land which is holy for three different religions, and mine, Christianity, needs to protect its own. If Israel can do it better, we should support Israel. If Palestine can do it better, we should support Palestine. But, as it is, Palestinians are overrun with Muslims and we CANNOT support such a state (they being, imo, the natural enemies to Christianity).

Thirdly, Israel was created not intrinsically by war, but by international agreement and various treaties. The DID engage in war to protect their villages, while pushing for international recognition, and most of them BOUGHT the parts of Palestine that now Muslims want to fight over. The Palestinians only started caring once the Arabs got involved. Moreover, lands like the Gaza strip, etc. were gained only when Egypt got into a war with them and managed to rouse the Muslim populations surrounding them, which led to territorial gains. This is perfectly acceptable morally, the best I can tell.

Thought must also be taken for human life. If Israel can gain unilateral regional control, breaking the backs of the Muslim powers in the area, it will mean that there will ultimately be less deaths in the long run because none of the surrounding nations will have the means to wage extended wars. However, if Israel continues with its policy of appeasement, it will mean increasing the ability of the foes to fight and arm themselves, and possibly the extinction of their own state.

People despise you when you're strong, but they really, really HATE you when you're weak.

[son_of_angels]

[quote]The thing is, you must realize that you can't take the whole Koran literally. There are good people in pagan religions and horrible people in good religions. It depends on how the person follows the religion, not the religion itself. Take the Bible, logically a lot of the Old Testament is symbolic or metaphorical.

[/quote]


BTW, just because something is symbolic or metaphorical doesn't give you the right to disobey it. The Bible speaks with authority, whether or not with historicity. It could be the same with the Koran. Personally, I don't "take the whole Koran" at all. I think every copy of it should be burned, forming a huge pyre inside the Dome of the Rock.

[musturde]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Jan 29 2006, 04:43 PM']BTW, just because something is symbolic or metaphorical doesn't give you the right to disobey it. 
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Is this an arguement or a clarification?

[amdgboomer]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 29 2006, 02:30 PM']The idea of the formation of Israel isn't justified because Sadam's a ruthless dictator. What kind of logic is that? Sure the area has unrest, is that an invitation for even more unrest?
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Nobody's saying that. Sadam as a ruthless dictator was one (among several) examples of unrest in the Middle East that clearly have nothing to do with Israel. Point being, you can't blame the troubles of the middle east on israel. The region has a centuries and centuries long bloody track record. Anyone who's studied history can see that it didn't start with the formation of Israel. If anything, you can say it's too bad for the Israelis that their nation was formed in such a violent region.

I've done volunteer work in the West Bank, literally in and amongst Palestinians (we worked only with Roman Catholic programs, just to be safe). I spoke a great deal with Palestinians of all walks of life, and one thing remained fairly consistent- they all blamed every problem imaginable on Israel. Some even blamed terrorist attacks on Israel.

Hamas, similarly, blames the atrocities it commits on Israel. They say that these horrors wouldn't need to happen if it weren't for Israel. That common attitude of blaming everything on Israel is ridiculous. It's also what helped get Hamas into power, and what helps perpetuate the problem of terrorism.

[son_of_angels]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 29 2006, 07:53 PM']Is this an arguement or a clarification?
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Yes.

[musturde]

Sorry guys I just got on now and im a bit tired. I will answer everyone tommorow hopefully.

God Bless.