Nakedness

[God's Errand Girl]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Jan 26 2006, 12:40 AM']I was pondering this yetserday night.  If God made us in His image, why should we be ashamed when we are nude?  I look forward to whoever can explain this...
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We were naked and unashamed [b][i]before[/i][/b] the fall. Key words...[i]before the fall[/i].

[WildCatRupe]

Adam and Eve made the decision to cover themselves on their own. It doesn't seem to me that God said, "you ate from the tree...now you can't be naked!" but rather that Adam and Eve (which i also understood to be a story to be interpreted, rather than a fact-based historical account) made their own clothes (which God was disappointed with) and then he made them leather clothes because leaves aren't really what you'd call practical or long-lasting. Also....even if Adam and Eve were ashamed of being naked...does that mean we all need to be? is it wrong for me to be unashamed of being naked, as long as its in a manner respectful of the beautiful creation that is the human body, and retains God's gift of sexuality in its proper context. David fought Goliath naked, and that fact is celebrated in a 13-foot statue in the Vatican. If being naked is wrong, or something to be ashamed of, why do we permit, nay ENCOURAGE, the painting of hundreds of naked people all over the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel??

Timmy

[Sojourner]

[quote name='WildCatRupe' date='Jan 27 2006, 09:23 AM']Adam and Eve made the decision to cover themselves on their own.  It doesn't seem to me that God said, "you ate from the tree...now you can't be naked!"  but rather that Adam and Eve (which i also understood to be a story to be interpreted, rather than a fact-based historical account) made their own clothes (which God was disappointed with) and then he made them leather clothes because leaves aren't really what you'd call practical or long-lasting.  Also....even if Adam and Eve were ashamed of being naked...does that mean we all need to be?  is it wrong for me to be unashamed of being naked, as long as its in a manner respectful of the beautiful creation that is the human body, and retains God's gift of sexuality in its proper context.  David fought Goliath naked, and that fact is celebrated in a 13-foot statue in the Vatican.  If being naked is wrong, or something to be ashamed of, why do we permit, nay ENCOURAGE, the painting of hundreds of naked people all over the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel??

Timmy
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This and many other topics are discussed in John Paul 2's Theology of the Body.

A good place to start with this is with [url="http://www.christopherwest.com"]Christopher West[/url]; he's got some articles online, and if you do a google search for Theology of the Body you'll find a ton of resources. CW and many others have books, articles, and CDs on this topic that will answer all of the questions you've asked better than I could.

The [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/32"]apologetics section[/url] here also has lots of good information.

[sraf]

Well, Adam and Eve's equivalents today are the wee little babies that can be completely nude in front of company and perfectly happy. Up to a certain point (around age 4? 5-ish), little children are comfortable with being naked around each other and adults - whatever their parents might say. It's around the age of reason or later (when First Communion is traditionally made) that we start to become shy about our bodies.

*AHEM* And another well-accepted situation when nudity is acceptable in public is breastfeeding.

[curtins]

what does the church say about nudists?

[benedictaj]

I LOVE the Theology of the Body, I fully second someones suggestion that you start off with Christopher West - he really knows his stuff. Then try to read the real thing!
[quote name='WildCatRupe' date='Jan 26 2006, 06:14 PM']1) Is the human body inherently sexual/erotic?  Or is the eroticness of the body a function of some other factor, be it circumstance, environment, mindset or something else?

2) When/where is it appropriate to be undressed?

3) How much of our views on the human body are related to the actuality of the body, rather than culural and social mores?
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Just thought I'd mention this.
Eroticism isn't all bad. Our late Holy Father makes a careful distinction between natural eroticism "eros" and what we (in this grossly oversexed society) now consider eroticism to be. There is a fine difference.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='sraf' date='Jan 27 2006, 11:44 PM']
*AHEM* And another well-accepted situation when nudity is acceptable in public is breastfeeding.
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Well, that's more 'partial nudity'...and I doubt you'll see too many women remove their entire shirt to feed a baby. They seem to try to be pretty discreet & modest, the times I've noticed. I don't think this falls into the category of 'nudity'.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Jan 28 2006, 12:01 PM']Well, that's more 'partial nudity'...and I doubt you'll see too many women remove their entire shirt to feed a baby.  They seem to try to be pretty discreet & modest, the times I've noticed.  I don't think this falls into the category of 'nudity'.
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That is correct. Nursing a baby does not fall into a category of nudity and many state legislatures, including my own, have had to define that so that nursing moms don't get arrested for it. (which is really sad that women could get arrested for feeding their kids ,but that's a whole other rant)

[WildCatRupe]

[quote name='sraf' date='Jan 27 2006, 09:44 PM']Well, Adam and Eve's equivalents today are the wee little babies that can be completely nude in front of company and perfectly happy. Up to a certain point (around age 4? 5-ish), little children are comfortable with being naked around each other and adults - whatever their parents might say.  It's around the age of reason or later (when First Communion is traditionally made) that we start to become shy about our bodies.

*AHEM* And another well-accepted situation when nudity is acceptable in public is breastfeeding.
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Do these children actually become more shy about being naked, or is it rather that they better take instructions from their parents, so that when they are told, "you need to keep your clothes on," they do so? ive spoken with some nudists who say that, if chidren are taught that there are certain times that they can be naked and certain times to be clothed, they live with that the same way that children start wearing clothes all the time in more typical households.

Timmy

[sraf]

Well, it's likely that the second option - taking instructions from parents - is probably more likely, so there's still the fact that around whatever age that is, children are able to obey and understand.
Definitely around adolescence children become shy about their bodies - growing and changing in a lot of areas does make one a bit self-aware. Adolescence coincides with puberty, or sexual maturation. Interesting, huh?

I did misspeak, breastfeeding is only partial nudity, but it is still undressing to a degree. And some nutcases still think it's worth an arrest in public places. *wrinkles nose in disdain at aforesaid nutcases*

[WildCatRupe]

some relevant pieces of Catecism:

2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.
.....
2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

my question is....what is it that "should remain hidden?" is it the physical body? or is the intimate center of the person something far less tangible and less connected to the physical being? does being naked around people other than your spouse violate the precepts of modesty and chastity? or is what we're really supposed to protect our passion, our love-making, our [i]eros[/i], our expressions of sexuality, our intimacy? y'all can prolly figure out MY feelings on this issue, lol, but what do y'all think?

Timmy

[morostheos]

Basically, one's level of modesty should follow cultural norms at minimum, and should also take into account what you are "saying" with how you dress. It's hard to state that specifically, but it's pretty easy to see what people say with their styles of clothes. We should never entice others to look at our bodies as objects because of our clothes/lack thereof. I don't think you can set any specific guidelines, and that's probably why the Catechism doesn't either.