U.S., Israel to attack Iran

[Lounge Daddy]

"Iran pulls money out of Europe"
it begins...
[quote]A defiant Iran announced Friday it has begun pulling its foreign currency accounts out of European banks to protect its assets from possible U.N. sanctions over its nuclear program.[/quote]
[url="http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/01/21/news/world/2323bebb4389bacd872570fc0080c217.txt"]--- from HERE[/url]

[Era Might]

This isn't about partisan politics. It's about people's lives. Every time we go to war, we lose, no matter the outcome. "It is always a defeat for humanity."

Is the United States exercising war as just another option among many? I don't know. But we need to push the government to exhaust every last effort outside of war. It's not about Republicans, Democrats, and their egos. It's about the hell that war will bring upon innocent people.

Asked to bless Italian troops during World War I, Pope Benedict XV responded, "I bless peace, not war." No, he wasn't a coward. But he recognized that even a just war is a failure for humanity.

There was a time when soldiers went out to the battefield, and hacked eachother to pieces. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. Bombs are dropped on towns, on neighborhoods, on real lives. And no matter how right we are in thumping our chests and screaming "JUST WAR", innocent people will suffer, and innocent people will die.

So while we cannot rule out war completely, I think we have to change our attitude, so that war is not seen as a fact of life, but as a grave anomoly, something that should never happen. We should do everything we can to avoid war, as if our salvation depended on it. And only when we have done so, and formed a posture of true peace, can we accept defeat, and head to war.

[quote]"NO TO WAR"! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity. International law, honest dialogue, solidarity between States, the noble exercise of diplomacy: these are methods worthy of individuals and nations in resolving their differences. I say this as I think of those who still place their trust in nuclear weapons and of the all-too-numerous conflicts which continue to hold hostage our brothers and sisters in humanity. At Christmas, Bethlehem reminded us of the unresolved crisis in the Middle East, where two peoples, Israeli and Palestinian, are called to live side-by-side, equally free and sovereign, in mutual respect. Without needing to repeat what I said to you last year on this occasion, I will simply add today, faced with the constant degeneration of the crisis in the Middle East, that the solution will never be imposed by recourse to terrorism or armed conflict, as if military victories could be the solution. And what are we to say of the threat of a war which could strike the people of Iraq, the land of the Prophets, a people already sorely tried by more than twelve years of embargo? War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations.

--Pope John Paul II[/quote]

Edited May 22, 2008 by Era Might

[furay]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 26 2006, 09:50 AM']This isn't about partisan politics. It's about people's lives. Every time we go to war, we lose, no matter the outcome. "It is always a defeat for humanity."

Is the United States exercising war as just another option among many? I don't know. But we need to push the government to exhaust every last effort outside of war. It's not about Republicans, Democrats, and their egos. It's about the hell that war will bring upon innocent people.

Asked to bless Italian troops during World War I, Pope Benedict XV responded, "I bless peace, not war." No, he wasn't a coward. But he recognized that even a just war is a failure for humanity.

There was a time when soldiers went out to the battefield, and hacked eachother to pieces. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. Bombs are dropped on towns, on neighborhoods, on real lives. And no matter how right we are in thumping our chests and screaming "JUST WAR", innocent people will suffer, and innocent people will die.

So while we cannot rule out war completely, I think we have to change our attitude, so that war is not seen as a fact of life, but as a grave anomoly, something that should never happen. We should do everything we can to avoid war, as if our salvation depended on it. And only when we have done so, and formed a posture of true peace, and not war, can we accept defeat, and head to war.
[right][post="866474"][/post][/right][/quote]
Yes, thank you. Up to your post this thread had induced illness within me. Thank you for being the voice of reason, friend. God Bless.

[Azriel]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 26 2006, 07:50 AM']This isn't about partisan politics. It's about people's lives. Every time we go to war, we lose, no matter the outcome. "It is always a defeat for humanity."

Is the United States exercising war as just another option among many? I don't know. But we need to push the government to exhaust every last effort outside of war. It's not about Republicans, Democrats, and their egos. It's about the hell that war will bring upon innocent people.

Asked to bless Italian troops during World War I, Pope Benedict XV responded, "I bless peace, not war." No, he wasn't a coward. But he recognized that even a just war is a failure for humanity.

There was a time when soldiers went out to the battefield, and hacked eachother to pieces. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. Bombs are dropped on towns, on neighborhoods, on real lives. And no matter how right we are in thumping our chests and screaming "JUST WAR", innocent people will suffer, and innocent people will die.

So while we cannot rule out war completely, I think we have to change our attitude, so that war is not seen as a fact of life, but as a grave anomoly, something that should never happen. We should do everything we can to avoid war, as if our salvation depended on it. And only when we have done so, and formed a posture of true peace, can we accept defeat, and head to war.
[right][post="866474"][/post][/right][/quote]

[Duc_In_Altum]

Pray for peace.

[Lounge Daddy]

Hey - Azriel, and Era Might...
I have to say
The Church will never authorize war because of the side effects of the crusades
And not even because the crusades were wrong – the West fought against a Muslim crusade back then… but The Church cannot be personally vested in any aggression or counter aggression

So what – the Pope didn’t bless the WW1 or today’s wars? Does this make us stopping Iran from nuking the USA and Israel wrong?
The Pope not blessing WW1 only proves the point – the Church cannot as a rule officially condone any aggression… this doesn’t mean the Church views WW1, WW2, or even stopping today’s Islamo-fascism as morally wrong.

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/the_sign.jpg[/img]

[Ash Wednesday]

I said it before, and I'll say it again: is our country equipped to go to yet another war? Do we have enough resources to do that? At this point I don't think we are.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Jan 27 2006, 02:24 AM']Hey - Azriel, and Era Might...
I have to say
The Church will never authorize war because of the side effects of the crusades
And not even because the crusades were wrong – the West fought against a Muslim crusade back then… but The Church cannot be personally vested in any aggression or counter aggression

So what – the Pope didn’t bless the WW1 or today’s wars? Does this make us stopping Iran from nuking the USA and Israel wrong?
The Pope not blessing WW1 only proves the point – the Church cannot as a rule officially condone any aggression… this doesn’t mean the Church views WW1, WW2, or even stopping today’s Islamo-fascism as morally wrong.

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/the_sign.jpg[/img]
[right][post="867298"][/post][/right][/quote]

I agree, to an extent. The Church does not oppose all aggression. As far as I know, Pope John Paul II did not speak out against our war in Afghanistan.

But my point, as I said, was not about partisan politics. We as Christians need to hold this government in check. Peace, peace peace. I don't care if people think this is "soft".

It makes me cringe to think of sitting by and saying, "Oh, the nation is going to war, I trust President Bush". President Bush may be Christian, but he is also a world leader, and we need to hold his feet to the fire to make him make it known that the United States is truly committed to every means outside of war.

Does the United States government get a free pass because it's the United States government? I hope not. This is not a crusade. The United States is not fighting for the Church.

My government tells me it's going to war, I'm not gonna lay down in the name of Patriotism. What is the United States going to do if Iran nukes America? It's gonna nuke Iran.

This is why this is not just another passage in time. It could conceivably lead the way to total destruction.

I'll say it again. This country, and we as Christians, better work to avoid war as if our salvation depended on it. Because it does. This is my only point. We need to reform our fundamental attitude toward war. We need to scream with John Paul II, "War, never again!" If we truly reform our attitude, and truly committ ourselves to peace, and exhaust every effort to that end, and if we truly assume a posture of peace in the world, and not belligerence, then, maybe, we can consider war. But not a second before.

[Azriel]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Jan 27 2006, 12:24 AM']Hey - Azriel, and Era Might...
I have to say
The Church will never authorize war because of the side effects of the crusades
And not even because the crusades were wrong – the West fought against a Muslim crusade back then… but The Church cannot be personally vested in any aggression or counter aggression

So what – the Pope didn’t bless the WW1 or today’s wars? Does this make us stopping Iran from nuking the USA and Israel wrong?
The Pope not blessing WW1 only proves the point – the Church cannot as a rule officially condone any aggression… this doesn’t mean the Church views WW1, WW2, or even stopping today’s Islamo-fascism as morally wrong.

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/the_sign.jpg[/img]
[right][snapback]867298[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Can't speak for Era, but I'm going to use his quote. I don't believe, and I'm not saying that War is morally wrong in all cases. Obviously it is not, which is why the Church condones just war.

What I agree with in Era's post is this:

[quote]So while we cannot rule out war completely, I think we have to change our attitude, so that war is not seen as a fact of life, but as a grave anomoly, something that should never happen. We should do everything we can to avoid war, as if our salvation depended on it. And only when we have done so, and formed a posture of true peace, can we accept defeat, and head to war.[/quote]

There are times when we have to head to war, but in agreement with Era, it should be when we have exhausted all efforts.

[Jaime]

And let's be clear, while the Church can be hestitant to condone a war, they do have strong criticisms about a pre-emptive strike doctrine.

We should not dismiss the teachings of the Church under the guise of "They don't get involved in politics"

[Era Might]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Jan 27 2006, 08:25 AM']There are times when we have to head to war, but in agreement with Era, it should be when we have exhausted all efforts.
[right][snapback]867388[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Exactly. When the Church says war is only legitimate as a "last resort", she means just that. War isn't just another option among many. When we rack our brains working for peace, and do everything to achieve it, not only in deed, but in word, and still, we cannot achieve peace, then, the Church says, we can throw up our hands, and say "We have been defeated, we must consider war".

[Era Might]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 27 2006, 08:32 AM']And let's be clear, while the Church can be  hestitant to condone a war, they do have strong criticisms about a pre-emptive strike  doctrine.  

We should not dismiss the teachings of the Church under the guise of "They don't get involved in politics"
[right][post="867390"][/post][/right][/quote]

Two considerations stand out in my opinion:

1) The whole concept of pre-emptive strike has not really been dealt with in traditional just war thought. The Catechism of Catholic Social Doctrine says it is permissable only when a clear, immediate, imminent threat presents itself. This alone makes me question the legitimacy of American preemption.

2) We have already gone to war on false intelligence. What happens if it turns out Iran has no nukes, or the intelligence saying they're gonna bomb us in April proves false?

[Lounge Daddy]

So this is a government that promises to begin its nuclear program and eliminate specifically Israel and the USA
And you think we don’t at least make a bombing run and make sure they don’t launch?

Iran’s president is every bit as real as Hitler … and Russia is backing them (surprise?) – and then terrorists group #1 takes Palestine and has as a “political platform” a promise to destroy Israel

We need to stop them before they begin … instead of stopping them after the fact

[Lounge Daddy]

i agree with all your post aside from this...
[quote]This isn't about partisan politics. It's about people's lives. Every time we go to war, we lose, no matter the outcome. "It is always a defeat for humanity."[/quote]

[img]http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/the_sign.jpg[/img]

Slavery, Nazism, communism – and recently Al Quada sending airplanes into buildings and Saddam Hussein’s mass graves and tossing people into paper shredders … that is all inhumane
There are times standing up, being physically strong, and fighting this evil is the only way to preserve humanity
It’s too bad many liberals lack the spine and stomach to see evil and fight it

[Peccator]

[quote name='Nathan' date='Jan 25 2006, 04:09 PM']Jews do. And I support them.
[right][snapback]865897[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]...then you support a only country that:

1. refuses to disclose their nuclear capability to the UN.

2. which has sold US weapon secrets to China (most notably the secrets of ICBM technology, allowing for the first time Chinese Silkworm missles to be able to reach US soil & more recently sales of Unmanned recon aircraft).

3. Only country to still openly pratice segregation and known to openly abduct and torture anyone in their state who disagrees with them. (I think its also worth to mention the booming slave trade)

The list goes on...however that does not mean all jews are zionists...there are numerous jews who reject Zionism and the current state of Isreal and they're paying for it dearly.

[url="http://www.nkusa.org/"]http://www.nkusa.org/[/url]

[url="http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/"]http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/[/url]

I sopke to a local rabbi I know from University who belongs to the first mentioned group and he told me that jews in Isreal who reject the Zionist stance of the Isreali goverement are tirelessly victimized...some imprisoned because they rejust to join the IDF, their books banned and not to mention being deprived of citizenship.

However back to the issue at hand...I do not think at this point the state of Iran is a threat to the western world...in contrast to rogue states like North Korea..

I'd also be more concerned over a Pakistan-India conflict as both are nuclear capable. (The Russian sales of enriched uranuim should also be off concern..)

Edited March 23, 2006 by Peccator