Lookee Here...

[Paladin D]

Phatcatholic,

What if someone hears the true facts of Catholicism and it's teachings, yet truely doesn't believe they're truth? As in somewhat, knowing the teachings but not seeing the truth in them. Would they be classified as ignorant as well?

Just curious.

[Peppermint Patty]

PhatCatholic, thanks so much for taking the time to give me and others all that information. It was very helpful, and I also have browsed the apologetics board a little bit to learn some more stuff. It's interesting! Thanks again!

[Jake Huether]

what about free will?? being baptized as a baby, your free will plays nothing upon infant baptism, it is based upon your parents....

Matt 8:

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.

6 Lord, he said, my servant lies at home paralysed and in terrible suffering.

7 Jesus said to him, I will go and heal him.

8 The centurion replied, Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.

9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it.

10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, Go! It will be done just as you believed it would. And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Note: It was by the centurions faith that his servant was healed, not by the faith of the servant.

When we are born we are "paralysed and in terrible suffering" for we know not the grace of God! What person, reasonable or not, would freely will to stay out of the grace of God and remain paralysed and suffering?

Our parents and Godparents do us a great honor by requesting that we be baptised. It is by their faith that we are healed.

[frozencell]

PhatCath....

I must say that I think I've learned more things off of your post than I have ever learned in any other single DAY in my life! You are amesome! As a new Catholic I look forward to learning from you. You have definitely strengthened my faith already.

Quick question: I was recently told (guess where) that the Latin and Greek titles for the Pope translated meant "substitute Christ" and this was unbiblical. Please help. :cool:

[Jake Huether]

I have crosses and pics of Jesus in my home, which a lot of evan. Christians think is against what God says about carving a graven image. Does anyone have any responses to that? I am unsure about the graven image deal.

Catholics follow the first commandment as thus:

We do not worship graven images.

Pretty straight forward.

So that having graven images isn't bad, it is having them and worshiping them.

Protestants on the other hand have taken the commandment to mean that we cannot even have or make graven images.

Now, this falls short on several fronts. I will give a few examples to illustrate my point.

Note: God says:

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

So, we see that this includes anything in the heavens above or on the earth, etc.

Right after God gave this commandment, he then commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent for the Isrealites to look at!

Numb. 21:

8 The LORD said to Moses, Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.

9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

He also commands Moses to make the Ark of the Covenant with two Angels on the lid!

Ex. 25:

18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover.

Solomon made God's house, and in it we see cherubim, flowers, cows, et al.

We are most certainly alowed to fashion for ourselves images of anything we want. We cannot make of them idols. We cannot worship them.

Catholics have many statues. They remind us of our family in heaven! God, Angels, Saints, etc.

But we don't worship them.

[phatcatholic]

Paladin,

What if someone hears the true facts of Catholicism and it's teachings, yet truely doesn't believe they're truth? As in somewhat, knowing the teachings but not seeing the truth in them. Would they be classified as ignorant as well?

well, first of all, i think that they need to be exposed to ALL of the truth, all of the teachings before they can be held accountable. secondly, i think that it is in accordance w/ God's mercy to recognize that years of anti-catholicism in another denomination can make it hard for a person to accept these truths, even when they have been exposed to all of them. but, i also think that a person's background can only keep them "invincibly ignorant" for so long. after a while, that person moves into the arena of rejecting the truth just b/c it is hard. that it is when i think they are held accountable. at the same time, it is not up to us to decide who is "invincibly ignorant" and who is not. all we can do is continue to share the truth w/ love, and hope that they will come to share in its fullness.

my opinion on this has been formulated through reading many articles on this subject, some of which include the following:

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation

The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

the following article is more theological in nature but it is very informative as well:

The Necessity of Being Catholic

i hope this helps........pax christi,

phatcatholic

[PedroX]

Frozen Cell,

I don't know about the Greek title for "Pope", but the latin is "Il Popa" which means (I believe) "The Father". This is representative of his (the Pope) being the spiritual (on earth) father of us, much as we call our Priest "Father". Hope this helps!

peace...

[phatcatholic]

frozencell,

first off, i'm glad i could make your day! (well, actually God made your day through me, but i digress). on to your question:

Quick question: I was recently told (guess where) that the Latin and Greek titles for the Pope translated meant "substitute Christ" and this was unbiblical. Please help. 

the pope's official title is "vicar of Christ." now, what does this mean? dictionary.com even has "vicar of Christ" as one of their entries. they define it as:

"the pope as representing Christ on earth."

i was extremely surprised and thankful to find a rather fitting definition here! the key word in this definition is "representing." the pope is not a "substitue Christ" in the sense that he claims to be Christ, or replace Christ in ANY sense. the Church has never claimed such a position for the pope, it would be utter blashemy!

what the pope does do is represent Christ's leadership of the Church on earth. Jesus said to Peter "what you bound on earth is bound in heaven, what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven." he likewise told all the apostles "whoever hears you hears me, whoever rejects you rejects me." in doing so, Jesus connects his authority in heaven and earth to the leadership of his Church on Earth. The Pope thus becomes Jesus' voice of authority for His Church on Earth.

this is what it means to be the "vicar of Christ." does this make sense? if not, please let me know.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[cmotherofpirl]

My dear Aunt Dorothy (of blessed memory) would probably qualify as invincibly ignorant. Every Sunday her Baptist preacher got up and talked about the evils of the Catholic Church. Every single Sunday. When she would see me and my mom she would shake her head and tell us she was really sorry we were going to hell because we were Catholic. I had the misfortune to attend her Church once or twice and she was not kidding.

When her son married a catholic, she took her minister to the wedding for protection against the catholic priest. She left in a huff because the priest actually danced with the bride and we had champagne for the toast. Proof of our impending hellfire.

One day my dad (who was agnostic) told her in 40 years of going to Catholic Church, he had never heard of a sermon about another religion. She didn't believe him.

Even at her funeral, her minister railed against the Church, and the fact we catholics were in his Church.

The only thing that would have any effect on her was if Jesus Christ himself appeared to her as he did to St. Paul.

THAT is invincible ignorance.

[Peppermint Patty]

Why do you all think that so many other denominations are against Catholicism? Why isn't it just recognized as another Christian denomination, rather than a cult that sends people to hell?

[DesiringMore]

unfortunately you have ANTI-everythings in all walks of life....but you have to remember just as i have with the Catholic church, not everyone is hypocritical, slandering, and just like the next anti-Catholic person!!!! I am sorry that you have experienced this...but i too have experienced anti-protestants....its not fun...that's one reason why i will NOT participate in such....

[Lil Red]

Why do you all think that so many other denominations are against Catholicism?  Why isn't it just recognized as another Christian denomination, rather than a cult that sends people to hell?

P.Patty, this is just what I think, but I think it's because the Church has taught the same thing for 2000 years, and we won't back down on something just because "society" tells us it's okay. Things like with abortion, contraception, pre-marital sex, divorce, etc. People hate the Church because She won't let people do what they want. She holds people to a higher moral standard.

[MrsFrozen]

So, the difference between the crucifixion and the cross is that the crucifix has Jesus hanging on the cross?? please tell me if i'm wrong

Yes, that's right..

[Peppermint Patty]

I think that's one of the biggest problems with Christianity, is that people take their own views about things, and then try to find some Scripture that fits into their ideal. On Christianity.com, I have seen soooo many people who claim to be Christians decide to take their lives in their own hands and do whatever they want. They will date and marry unbelievers, watch and read horrible things, go out drinking in bars, have premarital sex, etc. These are things that should not only be really obviously against God, but whatever happened to allowing the Holy Spirit to work in your life? I mean, seriously, just because certain words can not be found in the Bible does not mean that the principle isn't there. Sorry, this is my gripe. I want to see some Christians who actually have a desire and drive to do as Christ wants them to!!!

EEEEEKKKKK I just saw today that earthless was made moderator. I really dislike that site, I don't want to go there anymore. Another Christian was actually arguing with me that babies can't sin. I said that babies are born with original sin, or a sinful nature, but that does not mean they are capable of willfully sinning. The guy demands for me to show him in the Bible where it says that. I thought it was just obvious. (I don't know how Catholics believe about that exactly, so I'm sorry if that last comment was against what you all believe.)

[MrsFrozen]

And this site is called Christianity.com?

Yes.. For reasons of which I'm unsure... <_<