Lookee Here...

[DesiringMore]

Could someone tell me why i don't have permission to start a new topic in the Debate area?? i could before today but now i can't....i don't think i've done anything wrong to cause this to happen...but if i have, would someone tell me :sadder:

[frozencell]

It's a new record!!!!

I was banned 5 minutes after sending the moderator that letter!

Does that sound like anyone who cares to hear another side other than their own?

:angry:

[Peppermint Patty]

Third, I find it very hypocritical that you and the non-Catholic users of this forum would take the liberty to use the Catichism "against" Catholics and not let Catholics qoute from it also. How can you use something in an attempt to condemn and not let someone else use it to defend themselves without claiming them a heretic?

Fourth, it seems that most everyone on this thread is forgetting one of the most important teachings of the Lord God. I have yet to see the love of God expressed to me save by one person.

I will not remove my avatar and if you see fit to "ban" me from your website in much of the same manner as you claim makes the Catholic church so bad then I am very sorry. I do enjoy debating on your forum, setting misconceptions of the Catholic church straight. I am not trying to convert anyone and I'm not looking to bring Protestantism down around anyone's ears, and for this, at least, I expected the same from those professing Christ's love. I'm sure I am not the first martyr of the faith to your site and even more sure that I won't be the last.

I guess we will see what happens. I'm not predicting long before my demise on his site, though.

I think you can expect an almost instant demise!! Maybe it's for the better. I didn't know that they didn't allow you to quote from catechism, though, I thought they allowed it. As far as your avatar, I am quite surprised about his reaction. I am assuming they don't like it because it depicts a crucifix instead of a cross, which many Christians consider to be a strictly Catholic symbol. I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me.

I have crosses and pics of Jesus in my home, which a lot of evan. Christians think is against what God says about carving a graven image. Does anyone have any responses to that? I am unsure about the graven image deal.

[frozencell]

His reasoning was this:

People can quote from the Catechism, in fact I prefer that they do. When one adds their own interpretation of it that supports Romanism is where violations occur.

Not sure how that works, but, oh well! I have a clear conscience. :D

^_^ :D ^_^ :D ^_^ :D ^_^ :D

[Muschi]

:angry: What's the name of this forum?

This guy gets off saying that one cannot quote the Catechism to support "romanism" by their interpretation........

WHAT THE HECK DOES HE THINK HE DOES WITH SACRED SCRIPTURE???????!!!!!!?????

People like this infuriate me because they really are NOT open to truth!!! I hate the fact that they basically "hijack" the Christian faith for themselves and then kick everyone else out who doesn't go along with their program. What sheer hypocrisy!!!

And finally: GYAHHHHHHHHHAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, just had to let it out! - Muschi

[MrsFrozen]

What's the name of this forum?

This guy gets off saying that one cannot quote the Catechism to support "romanism" by their interpretation........

WHAT THE HECK DOES HE THINK HE DOES WITH SACRED SCRIPTURE???????!!!!!!?????

People like this infuriate me because they really are NOT open to truth!!!  I hate the fact that they basically "hijack" the Christian faith for themselves and then kick everyone else out who doesn't go along with their program.  What sheer hypocrisy!!!           

And finally:        GYAHHHHHHHHHAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, just had to let it out!    - Muschi

Hi, Muschi..

The forum was on Christianity.com. The name of the thread is "Roman Catholicism," under the "Theology and Doctrine" category.

Yeah, this is really upsetting, I agree.. Unfortunately, they refuse to even hear anything we have to say. Anything that doesn't completely coincide with their beliefs is removed from the board, the poster banned. My husband was banned within a three-hour period, with no more than a dozen posts, because he refused to remove his "Catholic" avatar. The avatar, incidentally, was of the Crucifixion. Evidently, Protestants don't believe in the Crucifixion?

:huh:

[DesiringMore]

So, the difference between the crucifixion and the cross is that the crucifix has Jesus hanging on the cross?? please tell me if i'm wrong

[Paladin D]

And this site is called Christianity.com?

[phatcatholic]

Peppermint Patty and DesiringMore,

many of your questions and comments are addressed in the following articles:

Assurance of Salvation?

Salvation Outside the Church

Born Again in Baptism

Necessity of Baptism

Do Catholics Worship Statues?

i will elaborate upon these and other issues in my next post

[phatcatholic]

Peppermint Patty,

i likewise thank you for becoming a part of our group. in a world of anti-catholicism, your honest questions are refreshing. i would like to answer the questions you have posed here so far:

I think here is the main problem: you don't believe that we can be saved without the Catholic church and a lot of evangelicals don't believe you can be saved while remaining in the Catholic church. I don't believe that, I believe the only requirement is that one has accepted Christ as their Savior. Although I don't believe salvation is through works, I do believe that anyone who is saved will produce good works in their life.....Do you believe I can not be saved unless I go through Catechism classes and become a member of the Catholic church?

in regards to salvation outside of the catholic church, let me set the record straight: those who are not catholic can in fact be saved. catholics believe that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth. in turn, every denomination possesses a measure of this truth in varying degrees. if a person does not know the truths of catholicism--and i think the same applies to a person who is brought up into an anti-catholic environment that makes it hard for him to accept these truths--that person is protected by something called "invincible ignorance." therefore, as long as these persons follow the truth as they know it then they can be saved. however, a person who has the opportunity to learn the truths of catholicism and does not take it--or the person who knows the truths of catholicism (NOT the myths or misconceptions) and concsiously rejects them--will not be saved.

in regards to the role of works in our salvation, catholics do not believe in salvation through works. we do not believe in salvation through faith either. instead, we believe in salvation through a mixture of faith AND works. for more on this please see the following:

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isaiah 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - many Protestants believe that, in order to be saved, one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. They believe that good works are not necessary for salvation, but simply flow from those who are already saved. But these verses teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 - we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus orders the Ephesians who have strong faith to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus acknowledges the good works of the Thyatirans, except their tolerance of Jezebel and is thus not satisfied.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus will give each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:1-2,8,15 - again, Jesus is judging our works from heaven. We choose to apply Christ's merits to our own lives.

Rev. 14:13, 20:12 - we are judged by the Lord by our works. Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

from www.scripturecatholic.com

does this suffice for an explanation of faith and works? if not, let me know and i can supply more commentary. now, on to your next question:

I must somehow be linked to Jesus Christ in His Church, which according to Catholics is, of course, the Catholic Church, you said. But the Bible says that all who believe in Him shall be saved, not all who belong to a certain organization. This is something that really confuses me.

hopefully, my previous response has addressed this question as well. i would also like to add that nothing the Catholic Church believes is in contradiction to the many verses in the bible that non-catholics (do u dislike the word "protestant"?) use to support "sola fide" or salvation by "faith alone." faith does save in the catholic church. however, it does not save in the direct sense that non-catholics use. allow me to explain:

directly, catholics are initially "saved" or "justified" through baptism. however, were it not for faith, this baptism would not occur. for the adult convert, it is his new-found faith in Jesus Christ that leads him to be saved through baptism. for the infant, it is the faith of his parents that leads him to the same salvation. this seems to me to be the only way to reconcile the many verses in the bible that speak of salvation thru faith with the abundance of evidence both from the bible and from the earliest christians which reveals that baptism saves as well.

Also, what is the state of grace you refer to when it comes to salvation? Verses like Hebrews 6:11-12, and 10:22 say that we can be assured of our salvation.

Is this the appropriate place for discussing these things?

right off hand, i'm not sure how heb 6:11-12 and 10:22 defend an assurance of salvation. it could be that our translations are different. i don't have my RSV-CE w/ me, so i quote from the NAB:

Heb 6:11-12 We earnestly desire each of you to demonstrate the same eagerness for the fulfillment of hope until the end, so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Heb 10:22 let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience 12 and our bodies washed in pure water.

maybe u can enlighten me further on the meaning you attribute to this passage. at any rate, it is an assurance of salvation that is the issue at hand, so it is that i will comment on.

you ask: "what is the state of grace you refer to when it comes to salvation?" the basic premise is this: thru water baptism our spirit is cleansed of all sin and made fit for heaven through God's "sanctifying grace." however, when--thru our own free will--we choose to turn away from God and disobey him, we lose this sanctified nature of our soul. when this occurs, we must come to God in Confession and ask Him for forgiveness. through confession, we recieve God's "sanctifying grace" and our souls are made pure again. through all seven sacraments we recieve "actual graces." these are like spiritual protection or pushes that encourage us to maintain the good life. if we have done to to our death, if we have "endured to the end" then we will go to heaven.

as for an assurance of salvation, please consult the following defense that our salvation can in fact be lost and they we can never know w/ 100% certainty wether we are saved (this is long, but i encourage you to read it. it will be very helpful for you!):

There are few more confusing topics, when Protestants and Catholics sit down to talk, than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: "Have you been saved?" What the question also means is: "Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?" Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance.

All they have to do, at just one point in their lives, is "accept Christ as their personal Savior," and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.

Kenneth E. Hagin, a well-known Pentecostal televangelist from the "Word Faith" wing of Protestantism, asserts that this assurance of salvation comes through being "born again": "Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Though much of Hagin’s theology is considered bizarre in Protestant circles, his explanation of being born again could be endorsed by millions of Evangelical Protestants. In his booklet, The New Birth, Hagin writes, "The new birth is a necessity to being saved. Through the new birth you come into the right relationship with God."

According to Hagin, there are many things that this new birth is not. "The new birth is not: confirmation, church membership, water baptism, the taking of sacraments, observing religious duties, an intellectual reception of Christianity, orthodoxy of faith, going to church, saying prayers, reading the Bible, being moral, being cultured or refined, doing good deeds, doing your best, nor any of the many other things some men are trusting in to save them." Those who have obtained the new birth "did the one thing necessary: they accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior by repenting and turning to God with the whole heart as a little child." That one act of the will, he explains, is all they needed to do. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.

Does this sound too good to be true? Yes, but nevertheless, it is something many Protestants claim. Take a look at what Wilson Ewin, the author of a booklet called There is Therefore Now No Condemnation, says. He writes that "the person who places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. No personal breaking of God’s or man’s laws or commandments can nullify that status."

"To deny the assurance of salvation would be to deny Christ’s perfect redemption," argues Ewin, and this is something he can say only because he confuses the redemption that Christ accomplished for us objectively with our individual appropriation of that redemption. The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response.

Certainly, Christ did die on the cross once for all and has entered into the holy place in heaven to appear before God on our behalf. Christ has abundantly provided for our salvation, but that does not mean that there is no process by which this is applied to us as individuals. Obviously, there is, or we would have been saved and justified from all eternity, with no need to repent or have faith or anything else. We would have been born "saved," with no need to be born again. Since we were not, since it is necessary for those who hear the gospel to repent and embrace it, there is a time at which we come to be reconciled to God. And if so, then we, like Adam and Eve, can become unreconciled with God and, like the prodigal son, need to come back and be reconciled again with God, after having left his family.

 

You Can’t Lose Heaven?

Ewin says that "no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit."

One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit it—and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really work—either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Can You Know?

Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. This is a related, but still distinct issue. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is now in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The "knowability" of salvation is a different question than the "loseability" of salvation.

From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? The anonymous author says the "Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’"

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of Can Anyone Really Know for Sure? admits that there is a false assurance: "The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."

Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.

But this portrayal is in error. Catholics do not live lives of mortal terror concerning salvation. True, salvation can be lost through mortal sin, but such sins are by nature grave ones, and not the kind that a person living the Christian life is going to slip into committing on the spur of the moment, without deliberate thought and consent. Neither does the Catholic Church teach that one cannot have an assurance of salvation. This is true both of present and future salvation.

One can be confident of one’s present salvation. This is one of the chief reasons why God gave us the sacraments—to provide visible assurances that he is invisibly providing us with his grace. And one can be confident that one has not thrown away that grace by simply examining one’s life and seeing whether one has committed mortal sin. inDouche, the tests that John sets forth in his first epistle to help us know whether we are abiding in grace are, in essence, tests of whether we are dwelling in grave sin. For example, "By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10), "If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20), "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

Likewise, by looking at the course of one’s life in grace and the resolution of one’s heart to keep following God, one can also have an assurance of future salvation. It is this Paul speaks of when he writes to the Philippians and says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). This is not a promise for all Christians, or even necessarily all in the church at Philippi, but it is a confidence that the Philippian Christians in general would make it. The basis of this is their spiritual performance to date, and Paul feels a need to explain to them that there is a basis for his confidence in them. Thus he says, immediately, "It is right for me to feel thus about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel" (1:7). The fact that the Philippians performed spiritually by assisting Paul in his imprisonment and ministry showed that their hearts were with God and that it could be expected that they, at least in general, would persevere and remain with God.

There are many saintly men and women who have long lived the Christian life and whose characters are marked with profound spiritual joy and peace. Such individuals can look forward with confidence to their reception in heaven.

Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

The same is true of us. We can, if our lives display a pattern of perseverance and spiritual fruit, have not only a confidence in our present state of grace but also of our future perseverance with God. Yet we cannot have an infallible certitude of our own salvation, as many Protestants will admit. There is the possibility of self-deception (cf. Matt. 7:22-23). As Jeremiah expressed it, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). There is also the possibility of falling from grace through mortal sin, and even of falling away from the faith entirely, for as Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). It is in the light of these warnings and admonitions that we must understand Scripture’s positive statements concerning our ability to know and have confidence in our salvation. Assurance we may have; infallible certitude we may not.

For example, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

 

What To Say

"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

you also provide the following questions and comments:

OK, I agree that there is one church, which I believe is the body of Christ. I don't think it is just the Catholic church, but anyone who puts their faith in Christ and knows Him as their Savior. I'm sure there are many in the Catholic church which are not saved because they never truly accepted Christ, just as there are many Protestants who are not saved either, nor will they be. Do you believe that as well, or is everyone who is a member of the Catholic church saved, do you believe?

I think believers can be known for their unity, yes, but once again, why does that mean you have to belong to a church? Can't it just mean that all believers who have accepted the gift of salvation are united, not necessarily in a building, but in spirit?

I do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation in the same way that you all do. I believe that adding baptism onto faith means adding works onto faith, when the Bible says we are saved by grace and not works. Of course, I also believe that any true believer will become baptized as long as they have the chance, because the Bible commands us to do so. To actively refuse baptism means you are actively refusing to obey God, which is a sign of an unbeliever. There was the thief on the cross, whom Jesus said would enter the Kingdom of God without baptism.

for one, a person is not guaranteed salvation just b/c he is a catholic. one can possess the fullness of truth and still turn away from it. so, u are right, there are probably many catholics who do not make it to heaven. as for the "one truth" of Christ, catholics would contend that this unity does not exist in protestantism. it is often said that as long as we all have faith in Jesus Christ, we are spiritually connected and thus comprise the "one church" of Christ. everything else is a "minor issue" that we are allowed to disagree upon. but, unfortunately, its not that simple.

for one, even this fundamental "faith in Jesus Christ" means different things to different denominations. explain this "faith in Jesus Christ." is this faith that He saves us? ok, how does he save us? some contend that it is a profession of faith (the common one being: "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior") is what saves us. others contend that u are not saved until u speak in tongues. Catholics contend that you are not initially saved until you are baptized. furthermore, who is saved by Jesus? some contend that only 144,000 will be saved. Calvinists contend that the elect are saved, and God abandons the rest. also, what is this salvation like? is it the kind that we recieve one time and maintain forever, despite our evil ways. or is it the kinda that we can lose, the kind that we must always strive for. is it obtained through works, faith, or faith and works?

this is our salvation we're talking about here! (a BIG issue inDouche!). yet many denominations differ in their definition of it. so, how are we to know which denomination posses the truth of the matter? we HAVE TO know, for our very salvation depends on it. do you think that God would leave us w/ such uncertainty. it is only logical that he would establish one church that would possess the truth that he wanted us to accept and live by. this church is the Catholic Church.

as to the necessity of baptism for salvation, it is defended w/ the following verses:

Born Again in Water Baptism

John 1:33 - when Jesus was baptized, he was baptized in the water and Spirit. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism.

John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism.

John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

Acts 8:36 - Philip recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.

2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism.

Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.

Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit.

please see these verses as well:

Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the over 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic.

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means begotten from above. See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism deals with the matter of salvation, not just symbolism.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means s an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic.. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. Regeneration is never symbolic.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean as our bodies are washed with pure water. Baptism regenerates us because it sanctifies our souls.

1 Peter 3:21 - baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, is what actually saves us; it is not just symbolic or superficial like a bath. Also, the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:39-43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise, " He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

regarding the theif on the cross, the thing to remember is that God is not bound by his commandments. although we must be baptized, God can choose to save people outside of this "sacrament." this is what He did here.

I have crosses and pics of Jesus in my home, which a lot of evan. Christians think is against what God says about carving a graven image. Does anyone have any responses to that? I am unsure about the graven image deal.

non-catholics often use Exodus 20:4-5 and Exodus 32:32 to condemn cruficixes and statues and other images that are often found in catholic homes and churches. however, if one looks closely at these and similar verses, one will find that it is the worship of these actual images that constitues the sin to be comdemned. first off, catholics certaintly do not worship these images. We worship our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. secondly, God even commanded that statues and images be made in the Bible:

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw "no form" of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16- of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn't yet reveal himself visibly "in the form of any figure."

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God's commandment "thous shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon's temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God's wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews' most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

hopefully, this answers all of your questions. i apologize that this response was so long. i guess i just wanted to make sure that i provided you w/ as much information as possible. hopefully, you will read it all and pray about it. good luck in your search for truth, and again, WELCOME!

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[DesiringMore]

i believe that from your believing Christ saved you on the cross and your new relationship with Him, works come from this...the fruitfulness comes because of this new relationship...your desire for good is more intense than before...your works follow your salvation...i honestly believe just as scripture says, faith without works is null and void...in a way your works show your faith therefore deepening your relationship with Christ even more...

[phatcatholic]

desiringmore,

u may have missed my most recent post. please see it above

[DesiringMore]

I must have posted mine when you posted yours....i didn't get a chance to read it until now....i have skimmed it, but intend on looking into it further...thank you for taking the time out to do so!! It is very much appreciated!! :D

[Lil Red]

phatcatholic, I just need to reiterate how amesome you are.

Cmom, your posts, as always, inspire me.

[Norseman82]

Well, from browsing that site and what youse guys have posted here, that forum is a classic "kangaroo court" that is more befitting the legal system of Communist Russia or Sadaam Hussein's Iraq: evidence presented against Catholics can be freely presented, but evidence in defense of Catholics cannot. We are doomed from the start on that forum. The only hope that anyone has there is that, in the 5 or so minutes that our posts may survive, someone might be exposed to what the Catholic church really teaches as opposed to the distortions.