Lookee Here...

[DesiringMore]

What is the definition or what do you mean by "straight to heaven ticket"? if those who have a straight to heaven ticket, is it possible for those to still to go purgatory before going to heaven or do they go straight to heaven? i guess i have a hard time with this b/c i want a YES or NO answer...you see, most Protestants believe that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord then you are saved...you continue to seek God and when you die, heaven is your eternal destination...but when i've talked some Catholics and asked about heaven, they say "i hope so, but i'm not sure".....why is this?

[Peppermint Patty]

You did the quote perfectly!

Jesus only founded one Church in 33 AD, Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism.

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means begotten from above. See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism deals with the matter of salvation, not just symbolism.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

Thank you all for your kind responses! You all are so much nicer here! LOL

OK, I agree that there is one church, which I believe is the body of Christ. I don't think it is just the Catholic church, but anyone who puts their faith in Christ and knows Him as their Savior. I'm sure there are many in the Catholic church which are not saved because they never truly accepted Christ, just as there are many Protestants who are not saved either, nor will they be. Do you believe that as well, or is everyone who is a member of the Catholic church saved, do you believe?

I think believers can be known for their unity, yes, but once again, why does that mean you have to belong to a church? Can't it just mean that all believers who have accepted the gift of salvation are united, not necessarily in a building, but in spirit?

I do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation in the same way that you all do. I believe that adding baptism onto faith means adding works onto faith, when the Bible says we are saved by grace and not works. Of course, I also believe that any true believer will become baptized as long as they have the chance, because the Bible commands us to do so. To actively refuse baptism means you are actively refusing to obey God, which is a sign of an unbeliever. There was the thief on the cross, whom Jesus said would enter the Kingdom of God without baptism.

I'm sure you all have heard all this a million times before, I'm sorry! MrsFrozen, I love your avatar, I'm expecting right now! :D

[frozencell]

  Can't it just mean that all believers who have accepted the gift of salvation are united, not necessarily in a building, but in spirit?

Not trying to be spiteful (really...I'm not...), but has anyone metioned this to earthless or the like?

[MrsFrozen]

MrsFrozen, I love your avatar, I'm expecting right now!  :D

Thanks! Congratulations! I just had a baby 7 weeks ago.. He's a little sweetie! :D

(But right now, he's eating like a horse and refuses to take a nap! )

[cmotherofpirl]

Thank you all for your kind responses!  You all are so much nicer here!  LOL

OK, I agree that there is one church, which I believe is the body of Christ.  I don't think it is just the Catholic church, but anyone who puts their faith in Christ and knows Him as their Savior.  I'm sure there are many in the Catholic church which are not saved because they never truly accepted Christ, just as there are many Protestants who are not saved either, nor will they be.  Do you believe that as well, or is everyone who is a member of the Catholic church saved, do you believe?

I think believers can be known for their unity, yes, but once again, why does that mean you have to belong to a church?  Can't it just mean that all believers who have accepted the gift of salvation are united, not necessarily in a building, but in spirit? 

I do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation in the same way that you all do.  I believe that adding baptism onto faith means adding works onto faith, when the Bible says we are saved by grace and not works.  Of course, I also believe that any true believer will become baptized as long as they have the chance, because the Bible commands us to do so.  To actively refuse baptism means you are actively refusing to obey God, which is a sign of an unbeliever.  There was the thief on the cross, whom Jesus said would enter the Kingdom of God without baptism.

I'm sure you all have heard all this a million times before, I'm sorry!  MrsFrozen, I love your avatar, I'm expecting right now!  :D

Patty Jesus only founded one Church.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)."

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

You have to be baptised in some way to be a member of the Church, by water, by blood, by desire.

Acts 8:36 - Philip recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the over 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

As I said before, you are justified by baptism (enter into God's kingdom) but that is not assurance you will achieve heaven.

Jesus left a visible orderly Church, not a bunch of scattered believers. Scattered believers could not survive 2000 years of persecution

[cmotherofpirl]

I think this is the perfect place to ask such questions Peppermint Patty:).....

i have a question concerning what Peppermint Patty quoted from cmotherofpirl....so, what about someone who was baptized Catholic but is now in a church other than the Catholic Church...

what about free will?? being baptized as a baby, your free will plays nothing upon infant baptism, it is based upon your parents....but i think denying or following Christ is free will...shouldn't you make the choice? why do you have to be baptized to be saved? why isn't Believing Jesus is your personal Lord and Savior, and having a relationship with Him not enough to make it to heaven???---Most, not all, but most Protestants believe that is all that is required to get to heaven...

Do you vacinate your children or wait until they are old enough to make a choice?

We are talking about your babies eternal life.

Baptism replaces the rite of circumcision (according to St. Paul) which was done on the eighth day of as childs life so the child could be a part of the Jewish nation, a child of Abraham.

Baptism wipes away original sin and personal sin ( if you are above the age of reason).

Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith

[DesiringMore]

Thank you for scripture to back yourself up cmotherofpirl... :D it helps a lot....

so, what about the question on "What happens to the person who was baptized Catholic but is now in another denomination?" because he was baptized, does he see heaven?

[DesiringMore]

Thank you all for your kind responses!  You all are so much nicer here!  LOL

OK, I agree that there is one church, which I believe is the body of Christ.  I don't think it is just the Catholic church, but anyone who puts their faith in Christ and knows Him as their Savior.  I'm sure there are many in the Catholic church which are not saved because they never truly accepted Christ, just as there are many Protestants who are not saved either, nor will they be.  Do you believe that as well, or is everyone who is a member of the Catholic church saved, do you believe?

I think believers can be known for their unity, yes, but once again, why does that mean you have to belong to a church?  Can't it just mean that all believers who have accepted the gift of salvation are united, not necessarily in a building, but in spirit? 

I do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation in the same way that you all do.  I believe that adding baptism onto faith means adding works onto faith, when the Bible says we are saved by grace and not works.  Of course, I also believe that any true believer will become baptized as long as they have the chance, because the Bible commands us to do so.  To actively refuse baptism means you are actively refusing to obey God, which is a sign of an unbeliever.  There was the thief on the cross, whom Jesus said would enter the Kingdom of God without baptism.

I'm sure you all have heard all this a million times before, I'm sorry!  MrsFrozen, I love your avatar, I'm expecting right now!  :D

I am with you Peppermint Patty as far as what you posted....but be open and keep asking questions!!

[DesiringMore]

What is the definition or what do you mean by "straight to heaven ticket"? if those who have a straight to heaven ticket, is it possible for those to still to go purgatory before going to heaven or do they go straight to heaven?  i guess i have a hard time with this b/c i want a YES or NO answer...you see, most Protestants believe that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord then you are saved...you continue to seek God and when you die, heaven is your eternal destination...but when i've talked some Catholics and asked about heaven, they say "i hope so, but i'm not sure".....why is this?

Does anyone have any answers they would like to give for these questions?? if not, i'm sure someone will come along and be able to answer:)

[littleflower+JMJ]

Does anyone have any answers they would like to give for these questions?? if not, i'm sure someone will come along and be able to answer:)

what you can do desiringmore is start a thraed about what your questions...that way no one misses it and its alot less confusing....

+JMJ

great questions by the way!! :D :D :D :D

[frozencell]

UPDATE ON CHRISTIANITY.COM:

I recieved this message from the moderator (TonyF):

Your avatar is in violation of TOS 17. Roman Catholic avatars are not permitted. Please change your avatar immediately and PM me when you have made the change.

------------------------

Soli Deo Gloria,

Tony

The avatar is posted here and can be found at this website:

www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/9234/christ.html

This was my reply:

First, I would like to say that my avatar is in no way expressly Catholic. It is not from a Catholic website www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/9234/christ.html (this being the site), it is not a Crucifix, and Protestants believe in the crucifixion. It is simply a religious avatar depicting the single greatest act of love known to mankind by our loving Lord. In fact, it looks to me as if it is depicted in such a manner as that of most Protestant pictures. (i.e. cloudy sky, sun rays shining through, stormy)

Secondly, I have not recieved a response to my question that I asked you earlier today. How is it feasible to debate inter-doctrinally without using proper references such as Catholic and Protestant?

Third, I find it very hypocritical that you and the non-Catholic users of this forum would take the liberty to use the Catichism "against" Catholics and not let Catholics qoute from it also. How can you use something in an attempt to condemn and not let someone else use it to defend themselves without claiming them a heretic?

Fourth, it seems that most everyone on this thread is forgetting one of the most important teachings of the Lord God. I have yet to see the love of God expressed to me save by one person.

I will not remove my avatar and if you see fit to "ban" me from your website in much of the same manner as you claim makes the Catholic church so bad then I am very sorry. I do enjoy debating on your forum, setting misconceptions of the Catholic church straight. I am not trying to convert anyone and I'm not looking to bring Protestantism down around anyone's ears, and for this, at least, I expected the same from those professing Christ's love. I'm sure I am not the first martyr of the faith to your site and even more sure that I won't be the last.

I guess we will see what happens. I'm not predicting long before my demise on his site, though.

[the_rev]

Its just a hub where anti-Catholics can get together and bash the Church. They won't accept Catholics defending the faith because they don't want to be proved wrong.

Don't be angry. Pity them. Pray for them. They are the ones who are losing out, not us.

YES! PRAY FOR THEM!

[geetarplayer]

DM, it is my understanding of St. Augustine's quote that if you do receive a Sacrament, you don't necessarily have a "Straight to Heaven" ticket. As humans, we all sin. As Catholics, we believe that purgatory is, in most, if not all cases, the first stop before getting to heaven. The Protestant belief that "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, then you are saved" is flawed, because people can easily lie with their mouths. Those who confess with their hearts that Jesus is Lord are saved, but that doesn't mean you're out of the clear.

When Martin Luther translated the Bible, he added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28-- "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith [alone], apart from observing the law." Protestants believe in sola fide, that faith alone will grant you salvation. Catholics believe that faith and works will save you. This may sound like a lot of work, but the idea is that with faith come works. By being faithful, good works come as second nature.

And DM, those Catholics that you've talked to are hopeful of God's mercy and love, but at the same time they are very aware of their own sinfulness. In the Mass, right before we receive Holy Communion, we say, "Lord, I am not worthy to receive You, but only say the word, and I shall be healed!" I suppose they don't want to assume that God will save them automatically because they don't want to seem like they are better than they think they really are. Sounds like a psychologist's playground, eh? :thinking:

-Mark

[DesiringMore]

what you can do desiringmore is start a thraed about what your questions...that way no one misses it and its alot less confusing....

+JMJ

great questions by the way!! :D :D :D :D

for some reason, i can't post a new question in the debate area??? not sure what's going on....

[Peppermint Patty]

Not trying to be spiteful (really...I'm not...), but has anyone metioned this to earthless or the like?

Yes, people have mentioned this to earthless and others like him. It has also been mentioned that the Bible says that we are to be humble and gentle, guiding the lost back on the right path, etc. These people don't care, nor do they truly care about anyone's salvation. They believe that unless people's interpretations of the Bible match up with theirs, they are a cult damned to eternity in hell. Now, I know that there are dangerous religions out there who deny the deity of Christ, but anyone who knows Jesus as their personal Savior will inherit the Kingdom of God. I supposedly have the same beliefs as those people, but they do not seem to believe this.