Quietfire Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Didnt every spirit created by God have the gift of free will, even satan? Pax Christi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I'm a bit leery of the term "spirit". I'd say every "person" (human or angelic), yes, was created by God with free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jan 22 2006, 08:30 AM']I'm a bit leery of the term "spirit". I'd say every "person" (human or angelic), yes, was created by God with free will. [right][snapback]863222[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes it depends on how you understand spirit. If you are using it the same way as "soul," then no. A lot of the Fathers state that the soul is what gives life, so even plants and animals have a soul. Now, that soul is not immortal or have the use of reason as we do, but they still have a soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 No, not soul. I understand the teaching on this. God created us with an infinite spirit (not to be confused with God's) as well as angels. This spirit cannot die, it continues after we die our earthly death. Angelic spirits also cannot die. So if we are all on the same page then I'll put it like this. All angelic and human persons are a created spirit. They did not create themselves, but were created by God. Everything God created is good-truth? God gave all created "persons" the gift of free will. Truth? Angelic persons are given free will through one choice-God or self. Choosing God, their free will allows them the freedom of doing God's will which is, by their choice, their will as well. Yes, I know what the 'test' was. They said "yes". Choosing self, their free will means that they said, "No. I will not serve" and thus chose self. They are not given sanctifying grace, cannot see the Face of God who is love and therefore in a nutshell....No God, No Love, No good. Man is given the gift of free will also. First with santifying grace so that man may see his Creator. But in sinning, his sin was for all of mankind. He was "the" man, the representative of the race because we are all connected. We not only lost sanctifying grace, we also lost the gift of integrity. So that now we are one big tug of war within ourselves. Original sin. We only have natural life when we are born into this world. But because we are created by the same flesh as Adam's, we do not possess the gifts spoken of above. Not saying that God cannot defer santifying grace to those who love him, it is just that Heaven was still closed to the race. God made it clear that He would redeem us, made obvious by the statement made not to us, but to the serpent. To us that means we must repent and turn to God for all our needs, knowing fully well that we cannot achieve Heaven by our own work. How's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAM Dad Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Many argue that Mary could not sin. In fact, I heard Fr. Corapi make that statement just last week on EWTN radio. I don't think I agree with that position. However, if it is indeed true I guess that Mary only had limited free will. She was free to choose what she wanted for dinner and other things but not free to sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Mary was free to sin, but never did. She was in a state like Adam and Eve before their Fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 [quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 22 2006, 12:12 PM']Many argue that Mary could not sin. In fact, I heard Fr. Corapi make that statement just last week on EWTN radio. I don't think I agree with that position. However, if it is indeed true I guess that Mary only had limited free will. She was free to choose what she wanted for dinner and other things but not free to sin. [right][snapback]863300[/snapback][/right] [/quote] In one sense. To say that Mary couldn't sin would make Mary MORE free. Freedom is not in choosing evil, but in choosing the good. It seems somewhat paradoxal I suppose, but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 The dude, Ive never heard that position before in reference to mary. I always understood that Mary was born into a state of sanctifying grace. Which set her apart from say, you and I. It doesnt mean she cannot sin, because that would negate her free will. But with that sanctifying grace, one is that much closer to God. I do think that many a saint had this gift from God. [quote]Not saying that God cannot defer santifying grace to those who love him, it is just that Heaven was still closed to the race.[/quote] The above quote is mine, obviously, and the part about Heaven being closed had to do with those persons before Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I agree that she had sanctifying grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Okay...everytime I see the title of this thread I think, " Don't worry, someone around here will." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 (edited) Yeah, Im not afraid of being corrected. How else will I learn. But back to the topic, All beings created by God have free will? or rather, All "persons" created by God have free will? Edited January 29, 2006 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jan 29 2006, 12:50 PM']Yeah, Im not afraid of being corrected. How else will I learn. But back to the topic, All beings created by God have free will? or rather, All "persons" created by God have free will? [right][snapback]869246[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Persons, yes. Beings, no. Animals are beings created by God and they lack free will (and thus also rationality), etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 Ok, gotcha. thats why I put the "rather" in there, I saw that I was repeating myself. "person" is the operative word here. Ok then, moving on. ..It get's bumpy from here so hold on. Remove free will of all angelic and human persons and we become puppets...right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jan 29 2006, 01:41 PM']Ok, gotcha. thats why I put the "rather" in there, I saw that I was repeating myself. "person" is the operative word here. Ok then, moving on. ..It get's bumpy from here so hold on. Remove free will of all angelic and human persons and we become puppets...right? [right][snapback]869287[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sure... It somewhat depends on how you're going to define "free will" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 Ok then. I need to stop there. Define free will for me. Dumb it down too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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