Lutheran-Catholic Efforts at Unity

[Kismet]

Pope Encourages Lutheran-Catholic Efforts at Unity
Ecumenical Delegation From Finland Visits Vatican

VATICAN CITY, JAN. 19, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI encouraged Catholics and Lutherans to overcome divisions, as they did in 1999 with the historic Joint Declaration on Justification.

The Pope's exhortation was heard by an ecumenical delegation from Finland, which visited the Vatican today on the occasion of the feast of the country's patron, St. Henrik.

The Finnish delegation's visit was a standard event in Pope John Paul II's agenda during the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. The visits now continue under Benedict XVI's pontificate.

Lutheran Bishop Mikko Heikka of Espoo and Catholic Bishop Jozef Wróbel of Helsinki headed the delegation.

"These visits are an occasion for further productive work, as well as for a deepening of the spiritual ecumenism, which prompts divided Christians to appreciate how much already unites them," the Holy Father said in his address in English to his guests.

Benedict XVI observed: "The present Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Commission in Finland and Sweden builds upon the substantial accomplishment of the Joint Declaration on Justification," signed in Germany in 1999.

The declaration allows for overcoming one of the theological reasons that gave origin to the Protestant Reformation triggered by Martin Luther.

A grace

"The commission is continuing to study the achievements and practical implications of the Joint Declaration," the Holy Father noted. "In this way it seeks to address the still existing differences between Lutherans and Catholics concerning certain questions of faith and ecclesial life while maintaining fervent witness to the truth of the Gospel."

The Bishop of Rome added: "We are especially aware that unity is a grace, and that we need continually to ask the Lord for this gift.

"Let us thank God for all that has been achieved so far in Catholic-Lutheran relations and let us pray that he may fill us with his Spirit, who guides us towards the fullness of truth and love."

Vatican Radio reported that on Friday the ecumenical delegation will take part, with Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, in a solemn Liturgy of the Word in the Roman church of St. Bridget of Sweden.

According to an old tradition, this church welcomes Lutheran delegations visiting the Eternal City, as Lutherans feel a special affection for this Nordic mystic.

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[son_of_angels]

"Unity is a grace" indeed, but only if that unity is one which is actually illuminative towards truth. I find that almost all the documents coming out of the Lutheran-Catholic dialouge commission moslyt muddy the waters in the study of theology, rather than look at its depths.

[Kismet]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Jan 20 2006, 06:59 AM']"Unity is a grace" indeed, but only if that unity is one which is actually illuminative towards truth.  I find that almost all the documents coming out of the Lutheran-Catholic dialouge commission moslyt muddy the waters in the study of theology, rather than look at its depths.
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That's fair enough...but we must always strive towards unity. A unity that involves the Catholic Church will have to imply certain things but, there are several possible outcomes during any ecumenical dialogue:

1) The whole sect will come around to our way of thinking;

2) Individuals either in the commission or amongst the body of believers will convert to Catholicism;

3) Bonhomie, prayerfulness and mutual understanding will develop between the two groups.


Ecumenical dialogue is important in and of itself as this disgraceful, fractured state of Christ's Body is deplorable and has lasted for far too long.

[sweetpea316]

Whew...Lutheran-Catholic unity....that's a tough one. I found out first hand when I had a discussion/debate with my Lutheran pastor back home last weekend about doctrine and theology in general. Unity would be [b]awesome[/b], but noooot easy.

[thessalonian]

On the one hand I find these discussions end up producing doctrines without any real "meat" but perhaps that is where they have to be since Lutherans have a long way to go from the milk they are on. Unfortunately it seems from my understanding that we agree on the words in a document but have different vocabularies and ways of understanding these things so we don't really agree on substance. But perhaps they general process will open Lutherans who have been closed to Catholicism for hundreds of years up.

Another concern is that these dialogues are primarily going on with the ELCA. Which unfortunately is very liberal. Therefore, while we may be coming closer on some theological understanding, we are diverging on moral issues it seems and therefore, real unity may be just as far away I fear.

Blessings

[Kismet]

I understand your concerns but the Church has had a 2000-year history of never compromising on theology when dealing with dissenters.

Mercifully, the Spirit is in charge and will guide us all to the future that He has in mind...which I believe involves unity for all who call themselves Christians. We can't continue as we have.

You might want to consider this book:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0759613206/002-6053208-5296030?v=glance&n=283155"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075961320...glance&n=283155[/url]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Kismet' date='Jan 20 2006, 08:54 AM']I understand your concerns but the Church has had a 2000-year history of never compromising on theology when dealing with dissenters.

Mercifully, the Spirit is in charge and will guide us all to the future that He has in mind...which I believe involves unity for all who call themselves Christians. We can't continue as we have.

You might want to consider this book:

[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0759613206/002-6053208-5296030?v=glance&n=283155"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075961320...glance&n=283155[/url]
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Is this written to me? I do not think the Church has compromised it's theology. I do not believe the declaration contains the meat of Catholic theology however and I do not think the documents are read the same way by a Lutheran and a Catholic is all that I say. We have a different vocabulary and way of thinking that makes that difficult. That said, I am in favor of the discussions going forward and do hope they will bear the intended fruit. The book does look interesting and I may pick it up.

I also see it providential and perhaps an insight in to what God has planned that we have a German Pope. Considering that is where all of this began, it would be fitting to have a German restore the unity that was broken by his countryman.

Edited January 20, 2006 by thessalonian

[N/A Gone]

unity is no longer seen as return model. That is not unity. The concept is two tribes, with respect to each other in mutual faith and understand that the other in its faith is valid. Those tribes are trying to find common ground to dialogue and work on the same page. I know plenty of awesome christians and christian theologians who would take heavy offense if you told them that unity is a submissive tail-between the leg return. The nature of protestantism would never fully "covert" to catholicism. That is asking a postmodern world to establish a universal rule and metaphysic. It isnt going to happen, but what we can do is come to a mere christianity. Establish how in our common savior we are brothers and rejoice and embrace that fellowship. If you think that the ecumenical talks are aimed at getting protestants to "give up" their history and theology and come back to rome than you are very wrong; your heart is in the wrong place and no offense but you are more of the problem than helping the cause.

Live the faith, let the spirit use you as an example. But do not discredit the faith of protestants. Right now our souls are not in the state to understand what unity will look like. But be open to the spirit. Just as the original council in acts debated over gentiles in the church, right now the nature of protestants in the church is going to be a heated debate that will wound many prides

good to be back guys

Edited January 21, 2006 by Revprodeji

[Aloysius]

the unity must be submissive to the Vicar of Christ and accept everything that the Catholic Church has taught through the ages, or not happen. it would be better for the protestants to remain out of communion for five hundred more years than for the heresies they were founded on to be considered no longer heresies.

certain traditions and cultures and rituals may or may not be retained if they returned to Rome. sure, that has yet to be determined. their sacraments would sure have to be restored. but the heretical teachings have been and will always continue to be condemned.

if it were all streamlined to just those things we agree on, then good, you'll have unity-- except the orthodox catholics will leave.

[Era Might]

[quote]unity is no longer seen as return model. That is not unity. The concept is two tribes, with respect to each other in mutual faith and understand that the other in its faith is valid. [/quote]

One of John Paul's most important contributions to Catholic theology, following the lead of the Second Vatican Council, was the recasting of ecclesiology in terms of Truth, going beyond a temporal antagonism between ecclesial bodies. The path of dialogue, with non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians alike, is essentialy a common search for Truth, and not an attempt to "defeat" the opposition.

That said, Truth has both a concrete form and objective boundaries. Partners in dialogue respect the intelligence and the conscience of each religious body, but with respect comes a mutual acknowledgment that our understanding of these forms and boundaries can be very different, and in some instances, irreconcilable. This is where ecumenism either stands as an authentic dialogue in the charity of Christ, or falls as a false relativism. Protestant Christians should not feel "disrespected" because the Catholic form requires institutional, hierarchical, and Sacramental communion. Properly understood, this goal of full communion within the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church is not a triumphal stab at "conversion", but the only honest foundation for dialogue. A religious body cannot offer anything in dialogue unless it is firm and sure in its own conviction. As long as we keep the proper perspective, that of fellow pilgrims on a quest for truth, our convictions will not lead to antagonism, but will bear themselves out as a fraternal sharing of where we are on this quest; not to bash one another over the head with Truth, but to honestly help others see as we see, so that perhaps they will come to a more perfect knowledge. Yes, the goal is always conversion to the Catholic faith, but this is not a negative "submission" to the Church, but an opening up to the fullness of Truth entrusted by Christ.

[quote]To believe in Christ means to desire unity; to desire unity means to desire the Church; to desire the Church means to desire the communion of grace which corresponds to the Father's plan from all eternity. Such is the meaning of Christ's prayer: "Ut unum sint".

--Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint"[/quote]

Edited January 21, 2006 by Era Might