banning gays from the priesthood

[Mrvoll]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 20 2006, 01:08 PM']What does that have to do with anything in this thread? 
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he was a priest

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Jan 20 2006, 07:57 PM']But honestly, neither is a 60 year old virgin. Not to be rude. but a priest is not sexually mature but that is another debate.
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So you think one is not sexualy mature unless you are having sex??

[dairygirl4u2c]

So, here are the responses that answered my questions.

from soc
[quote]Part of the requirements for being a good priest (I've read this from orthodox priests familiar with such things) is to be emotionally/sexually mature, and be able to relate to men and women as a man. A good priest should be someone who would make a good husband and father - he should relate to his parishioners as a spiritual FATHER.

Having deep-seated homosexual tendencies usually precludes this.

The celibate priest sublimates his masculinity into the priestly life.
The ideal priest is one who could be a husband and father, but instead sublimates and channels his masculinity into service of God and the Church. He sacrifices having sex to give his masculitinity to an even higher good.
The ideal candidate for the priesthood is not someone who chooses the priesthood because he does not feel he would make a good husband or father.
Deep-seated homosexual tendencies are a symptom of a defective masculinity, and it is for this reason that people afflicted with such are barred from the priesthood.
[/quote]

and from thes:
[quote]The matter has been settled it seems. The instruction as noted is out. [/quote]

So, after looking at the date on the instruction, november 2005, that must be the response that was given as foretold by that aticle.
It does not preclude those who have had smaller inclinations etc. But it does preclude homosexuals, those who are truly full blown homosexuals, as socrates has noted, with an interesting explanation that pretty much answers why deep seated homosexual tendencies do not cut it. It's interesting how language works, because photosynthesis's resposne wasn't much of a rationale with me, but socrates's response was a rationale, and going back and reading photo's response might make sense as implied, if that's what he meant.

Edited January 21, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jan 21 2006, 01:33 PM']So you think one is not sexualy mature unless you are having sex??
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perhaps defining "sexually mature" would help here.

remember I am not arguing for someone whom practices and accepts the homo lifestyle. That is wrong. I am speaking about someone whom is homosexual, but not practicing

[Socrates]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Jan 21 2006, 06:13 PM']perhaps defining "sexually mature" would help here.

remember I am not arguing for someone whom practices and accepts the homo lifestyle. That is wrong. I am speaking about someone whom is homosexual, but not practicing
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I wish I could find the thread with those quotes, but it seems to have vanished down the phatmass black hole!

(forgive me - I was tiread and distracted last night - that post should have started out "I think you are totally [b]missing[/b] the point." LOL)

The term may have been "psychologicaly mature." I remember one of the priests quoted said that while it was politically incorrect to say this, most homosexuals he had delt with in priestly formation did not have psychological maturity.

The issue here is not just sex, but psycho-sexual normalcy and maturity.
Homosexuality is an intrinsically disordered condition (as defined by the Church). The priesthood is not to be a place for men with psychologically disordered conditions. Candidates to the priesthood should be men who are psychologically fully masculine.
Homosexuality is a symptom of disordered masculinity.

The problem with homosexuals being admitted to the priesthood is not just about sexual activity. The problem is that deep-seated homosexual tendencies are a sign of deeper disorders.

Priests should be normal, masculine, "heterosexual" men, who are sacrificing the good of marriage, sex, and children for the sake of serving God as priests.
The priesthood should not be a refuge for those whose sexuality/psychology is disordered.

Again, we should repeat, no on has a [b]right [/b] to the priesthood.

You may disagree with this policy, but that is the reasoning behind the ban.

If the only issue here was sexual activity, there would be no need for this document, or a seperate mention of homosexual tendencies, as all priests are required to avoid any sexual activity to begin with.

[prose]

This is a prett popular discussion in fact. It is discussed here at LEAST oonce a week it seems.

[Guest JPII_ILoveYou]

I'm interested in what other people think:

Do you think being gay is a choice, or a genuine feeling?

If it is a choice, then it would be easier to ban them from the priesthood, because they are making a conscience choice to engage in sinful behavior.

[Socrates]

[quote name='JPII_ILoveYou' date='Jan 23 2006, 09:42 PM']I'm interested in what other people think:

Do you think being gay is a choice, or a genuine feeling?

If it is a choice, then it would be easier to ban them from the priesthood, because they are making a conscience choice to engage in sinful behavior.
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I'd say "being gay" is a disordered inclination.

Whether it is chosen or not is really entirely beside the point of this issue!

The fact is that people with such disordered conditions do not belong in the priesthood, whether they freely chose their disorder or not! (I encourage you to re-read the original document.)

Since when does whether something is "a genuine feeling" have any bearing on whether it is disordered?

Some people may have "genuine feelings" to kill other people! Would that mean they should be allowed to be priests?

A homosexual "orientation" reflects a disordered psyche, and people thus afflicted are not good candidates for the priesthood.

[Victor]

[color=green]Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.[/color]

With that in mind I can't help but think that a homosexual struggles just as much as a heterosexual in regards to struggling with sin. Technically our inclination toward sin is a disorder. So technically they shouldn't allow anybody to be a priest.

[Semalsia]

[quote]If it is a choice, then it would be easier to ban them from the priesthood, because they are making a conscience choice to engage in sinful behavior.
[/quote]

I'm just wondering. If it's a choice, then does that mean it's a sin to be gay? To choose to be in a disordered state.


[quote name='Socrates']Homosexuality is a symptom of disordered masculinity.

The problem with homosexuals being admitted to the priesthood is not just about sexual activity. The problem is that deep-seated homosexual tendencies are a sign of deeper disorders.

A homosexual "orientation" reflects a disordered psyche, and people thus afflicted are not good candidates for the priesthood.
[/quote]

What other problems would transpire then? I'm not aware of there being any kind of mental illnesses associated with homosexuality, if that's what you mean.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jan 26 2006, 05:02 PM']What other problems would transpire then? I'm not aware of there being any kind of mental illnesses associated with homosexuality, if that's what you mean.
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I would just post a link, but the site for some reason would only send you to the home page. I apologize in advance for the lengthy post, but here is a psychologist that helps to explain some of this:[quote]The Psychology Behind Homosexual Tendencies (Part 1)

Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons Makes Distinctions of Same-Sex Attractions

WEST CONSHOHOCKEN, Pennsylvania, DEC. 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- The new Vatican document on the priesthood and homosexual tendencies mentions a range of conditions, from deep-seated homosexual tendencies to transitory same-sex attractions.

To learn more about the nuances of the range of homosexual tendencies and their treatment, ZENIT turned to Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a psychiatrist, author and contributor to the Catholic Medical Association's document "Homosexuality and Hope."

Part 2 of this interview will appear Tuesday.

Q: How would you distinguish between someone with same-sex attractions and someone with deep-seated homosexual tendencies?

Fitzgibbons: Those with deep-seated homosexual tendencies identify themselves as
homosexual persons and are usually unwilling to examine their emotional conflicts that caused this tendency. Strong physical attraction is present to other men's bodies and to the masculinity of others due to profound weakness in male confidence.

These individuals in the priesthood have a significant affective immaturity with excessive anger and jealousy toward males who are not homosexual, insecurity that leads them to avoid close friendships with such males and an inordinate need for attention.

Most of these men had painful adolescent experiences of significant loneliness and sadness, felt insecure in their masculinity, and had a poor body image. Well-designed research studies have demonstrated a much higher prevalence of psychiatric illness in those who identify themselves as homosexual.

Under severe stress they may even experience strong physical and sexual attraction to adolescent males, as has occurred in the crisis in the Church. Frequently, they may have difficulty working in a collegial and comfortable way with heterosexual males.

Unresolved paternal anger is regularly misdirected as rebellion against the magisterium and the Church's teaching on sexual morality. Unfortunately, their denial, defensiveness and anger block their openness to seek the Lord's help with their emotional and behavioral weaknesses.

Those with mild homosexual tendencies do not identify themselves as homosexuals. Such men are motivated to understand and to overcome their emotional conflicts. They regularly seek psychotherapy and spiritual direction.

The goal of counseling is to uncover early conflicts, forgive those who hurt them and increase their male confidence -- which in time may lead to the resolution of same-sex attractions.

Such men accept and want to live and teach the fullness of the Church's teaching on sexual morality. They do not support the homosexual culture but see it as antithetical to the universal call to holiness.

Q: Are there psychological tests which can be helpful in identifying candidates with same-sex attractions or deep-seated homosexual tendencies?

Fitzgibbons: Yes, the Boy Gender Conformity Scale from the University of Indiana and the Clarke Sexual History Questionnaire can identify with 90% accuracy males with same-sex attractions. Also, an extensive history of childhood and adolescent experiences with the father and male peers, and of the body, can identify deep-seated homosexuality.

Simply asking a candidate if he is heterosexual or homosexual, as is done in many seminaries and religious communities, is not sufficient.

Q: What would your recommendations be for a candidate who has same-sex attractions or who demonstrates homosexual tendencies?

Fitzgibbons: When the evaluation reveals probable same-sex attractions, a recommendation is given to uncover and engage in the hard work of resolving his emotional pain with a competent mental health professional and spiritual director. After the candidate's male confidence has grown significantly and he no longer has same-sex attractions, he could reapply.

In our clinical experience those with deep-seated homosexual tendencies lack an understanding of the origins of their conflicts and of the possibility of healing. Many of these men also make a commitment to work on their emotional conflicts.

Q: What would your recommend for current seminarians who have same-sex attractions or demonstrate homosexual tendencies or significant affective immaturity?

Fitzgibbons: Given the present crisis in the Church, with 80% of the abuse involving homosexual assaults of adolescent males, seminarians and those in formation in religious communities with same-sex attractions have a serious responsibility to protect the Church from further shame and sorrow.

They should attempt to understand and resolve their emotional conflicts with a qualified mental health professional and spiritual director.

Seminarians with effeminacy, a clear sign of serious affective immaturity, usually failed in their childhood to identify sufficiently with their fathers and male peers. They can benefit from therapy to extinguish effeminate mannerisms and to strengthen their appreciation of their God-given masculinity so that they may become true spiritual fathers.

Seminarians with deep-seated homosexual tendencies should discuss their conflicts honestly with their spiritual directors and be guided by the Church's recent statement. We have seen many young men overcome these tendencies over the past 30 years when a spiritual component was incorporated into their treatment plan as in the treatment of substance abuse disorders.

The research of Dr. Bob Spitzer of the department of psychiatry at Columbia University School of Medicine has given hope to many young men in regard to the healing of their emotional conflicts.

Q: What are the major emotional and character issues which you believe should be addressed in the human formation programs in seminaries?

Fitzgibbons: A 2005 national study demonstrated that 28.8% of Americans will have an anxiety disorder in their lifetime, 24.8% an impulse-control disorder and 20.8% a mood disorder.

The most common origins of these emotional weaknesses in men arise from a lack of closeness and affirmation in the father relationship and with male peers. These emotional conflicts result in weaknesses in male confidence, sadness, loneliness, anger and often a poor body image. In addition, those from divorced family backgrounds have major trust weaknesses.

The predominant character weakness in our culture is that of selfishness, which is a major obstacle of self-giving in every vocation.

Good psychological testing and history taking could identify various types of emotional pain that the candidate could address in his spiritual life with his spiritual director, and if necessary with a qualified mental health professional. Conferences for seminarians on growth in affective maturity and in self-giving can be helpful in identifying and in resolving the conflicts which interfere with affective maturity.

Q: What criteria would indicate that a seminarian has achieved affective maturity?

Fitzgibbons: In my professional experience the major indicator of affective maturity in every vocation is healthy, balanced self-giving that includes the ability to receive from God and from others.

Affective maturity is also demonstrated by the ability to address the most common emotional stresses; that is, anxiety, weak confidence, anger, loneliness and sadness. Anxiety can be overcome by growth in trust and in confidence; anger by growth in the virtue of forgiveness, and loneliness or sadness by growth in the ability to receive the love of God and others on a regular basis and to give oneself.

Childhood and adolescent conflicts in these areas may also need to be uncovered and addressed. Also, a commitment to grow in numerous ways is necessary for the development of a healthy personality.
[/quote]

and part 2[quote]Date: 2005-12-06

The Psychology Behind Homosexual Tendencies (Part 2)

Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons on Help for Those With Same-Sex Attractions

WEST CONSHOHOCKEN, Pennsylvania, DEC. 6, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Many priests grow in holiness and happiness in their ministry as a result of the healing of their childhood and adolescent male insecurity, loneliness and anger and, subsequently, their same-sex attractions.

So says Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a psychiatrist, author and contributor to the Catholic Medical Association's document "Homosexuality and Hope."

Fitzgibbons shared with ZENIT how some seminarians, candidates for the seminary, and priests can make strides in resolving their homosexual tendencies, and what bishops and religious superiors can do to help them.

Part 1 of this interview appeared Monday.

Q: How can spiritual directors help seminarians or priests who have same-sex attractions?

Fitzgibbons: Spiritual directors can help seminarians and priests by understanding that same-sex attractions are treatable and are not genetically determined. They can encourage seminarians and priests to face their emotional pain with the Lord's help, particularly their loneliness.

Spiritual directors who actively and honestly engage in inner healing prayer and who can help apply the healing graces of St. Ignatius of Loyola's rules for the discernment of spirits can facilitate the healing process.

Q: The new Vatican instruction says that homosexual tendencies that are a manifestation of a transitory problem -- for example, delayed adolescence -- must be clearly overcome at least three years before diaconal ordination. What is your opinion of that?

Fitzgibbons: I believe that this statement means that it is not sufficient for the seminarian to be chaste for three years. He must also first know himself; that is, understand his emotional conflicts which cause same-sex attractions and have worked to resolve those conflicts.

Chastity for three years is not adequate because under stress in priestly ministry unresolved loneliness, isolation or insecurity from the adolescent life stage could lead to same-sex attractions -- even attraction to adolescent males in an unconscious attempt to escape from one's pain.

Dr. [Robert L.] Spitzer's recent research findings and many clinical studies support this view that homosexual tendencies can be transitory and resolved.

Q: What would you recommend for priests who have same-sex attractions or homosexual tendencies?

Fitzgibbons: I would recommend that they become more knowledgeable about the emotional origins and healing of same-sex attractions, as well as the serious medical and psychiatric illnesses associated with homosexuality.

Also, in view of the John Jay report findings that 80% of the priestly abuse cases were with adolescent males, priests with same-sex attractions have a serious responsibility to protect the Church and youth from further scandal by working to understand and resolve their same-sex attractions. Adolescent males need to be protected from homosexual predation.

We have observed many priests grow in holiness and in happiness in their ministry as a result of the healing of their childhood and adolescent male insecurity, loneliness and anger and, subsequently, their same-sex attractions. This healing process has been described in the statement of the Catholic Medical Association, "Homosexuality and Hope."

Our experience over 25 years has convinced us of the direct link between rebellion and anger against the Church's teaching, and sexually promiscuous behaviors.

This appears to be a two-way street: Those who are sexually active dissent from the Church's teaching on sexuality to justify their own actions, while those who adopt rebellious ideas on sexual morality are more vulnerable to become sexually active, because they have little to no defense against sexual temptations.

Growth in forgiveness and humility are essential in the treatment of such priests.

Q: How could bishops and religious superiors help their priests who have same-sex attractions?

Fitzgibbons: If bishops encouraged priests with homosexual tendencies to pursue appropriate therapy and spiritual direction with those loyal to the Church's teaching, they too would witness healing of their priests.

Also, priests would be helped if the "crisis boundary" programs did not mask the role of homosexuality in the abuse of the adolescent male victims. Instead, these programs should describe why adult males might be sexually attracted to adolescents and how this conflict can be resolved.

In view of the John Jay report, bishops should consider protecting young men by not permitting priests with deep-seated homosexuality to have teaching or other ministries in schools, colleges and seminaries.

Finally, bishops should be aware that there are many "experts" who ignore medical science or are swayed by political correctness.

USCCB National Review Board member Dr. Paul McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital, stated recently: "I'm amazed that this fundamental bombshell" -- of the abuse of adolescent males -- "has not been the subject of greater interest and discussion."

He told the National Catholic Register, "I'm astonished that people throughout America are not talking about it, thinking about it and wondering about what the mechanisms were that set this alight."

There is every reason to hope that with this new document the Church will progress along the necessary path of purification described by John Paul II in April 2002 in his meeting with cardinals and bishops on the crisis.[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Victor' date='Jan 26 2006, 03:36 PM'][color=green]Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.[/color]

With that in mind I can't help but think that a homosexual struggles just as much as a heterosexual in regards to struggling with sin. Technically our inclination toward sin is a disorder. So technically they shouldn't allow anybody to be a priest.
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A "heterosexual orientation" (attraction to the opposite sex), while it may present temptation to sin, is not objectively [b]disordered[/b].
Heterosexual attraction is properly ordered toward marriage and procreation. The priest gives up this good, but his natural attraction to women is not in itself a disordered state.

Homosexual attraction is not ordered toward any good, and is thus objectively disordered. It is indicative of deeper psychological disorder, as noted i the articles Paphnutius quoted.

Thanks for the articles, Paphnutius!

[Victor]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 26 2006, 04:53 PM']A "heterosexual orientation" (attraction to the opposite sex), while it may present temptation to sin, is not objectively [b]disordered[/b].
Heterosexual attraction is properly ordered toward marriage and procreation.  The priest gives up this good, but his natural attraction to women is not in itself a disordered state.

Homosexual attraction is not ordered toward any good, and is thus objectively disordered.  It is indicative of deeper psychological disorder, as noted i the articles Paphnutius quoted.

Thanks for the articles, Paphnutius!
[/quote]

My point was that Homosexuals can be just as faithful to the Church as Heterosexuals can. And in some cases the Heterosexual may struggle more in containing his urges then a homosexual. So a disordered condition such as Homosexuality is not enough to disallow them from the preisthood.

There are many "things" that do not lead toward any good. Men attach themselves to many goods and that attachment is just as much as a objective disorder as homosexuality.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Victor' date='Jan 27 2006, 10:05 AM'] So a disordered condition such as Homosexuality is not enough to disallow them from the preisthood. [/quote]But the point is that homosexual tendencies are almost never isolated. As the doctor said in the interviews that I posted, it is usually the result of much more deep-seated, unresolved issues. Homosexuality is almost always accompanied by other "issues" that would and does make it difficult to serve as a pastor of a parish.

I know that the post was long, but here is just what I am talking about. [quote]Most of these men had painful adolescent experiences of significant loneliness and sadness, felt insecure in their masculinity, and had a poor body image. [b]Well-designed research studies have demonstrated a much higher prevalence of psychiatric illness in those who identify themselves as homosexual. [/b]

Under severe stress they may even experience strong physical and sexual attraction to adolescent males, as has occurred in the crisis in the Church. Frequently, they may have difficulty working in a collegial and comfortable way with heterosexual males.
[/quote]Now the doc is not saying that homosexuality is always connected with pedophilia, or vice versa, but due to the stress and conditions of the priesthood, the priest with same sex attractions might seek that as an outlet, or it might manifest itself as such.

The bottom line is that homosexual attractions are an inherent disorder and are almost never alone. They stem from other issues and give rise to new ones.

[Victor]

Paphnutius, if it is found that a certain individual has such problems, then I agree. But keep in mind that there are some rather straight headed homosexuals that may do just fine. He may even be a great priest. Whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, you should be taken in as an individual case by cases basis.

~Victor

Edited January 27, 2006 by Victor