how involved is God

[Norseman82]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:35 AM']

In the podcast, Fr. Roderick was talking about how dangerous it is to claim to know what is going on in the mind of God, and how it is a mistake to project one's feelings and thoughts onto God.  [right][snapback]859888[/snapback][/right]
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There is a validity to this, because, even if it is true that God gets involved in minute decisions over and above giving guidelines, that can be abused by people who try to use it to manipulate people or cause unhealthy second guessing. There is a word for people like that: religious cult.

Someone else here said it best some time ago: as long as one is not breaking any of God's laws, who is anyone to accuse him of not following God's will?

[jezic]

I do think though that God can use every action for his plan. So while he isn't in control of the little things, he still paints the big picture (kind of like those pictures made up of hundreds of smaller ones)

[Sojourner]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jan 18 2006, 02:06 PM']I do think though that God can use every action for his plan. So while he isn't in control of the little things, he still paints the big picture (kind of like those pictures made up of hundreds of smaller ones)
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I'd hesitate to say "isn't in control" ... perhaps "chooses not to intervene" in certain little things?

[jezic]

i mean isn't in control in the sense that people are free to choose on their own, without his intervention.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:38 AM']Deism: God set the world in motion and left it to run on its own sans intervention.

Occasionalism: God continually intervenes in the workings of the world.
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Well, as Catholics we believe that God continually intervenes in the working of the world (not quite the best way of putting it though) this is simply what we call providence. Occasionalism is more radical than that and says that created beings have no potential for efficient causality. The implication of this is that we have no free will for this would involve a causal efficacy outside of God which is precisely what occasionalism denies. So everything activity that occurs is directly an act of God. When you will something you are not willing anything at all but are merely a puppet of God. And when you throw a match into your barbeque grill it is not the flamability of the lighter fluid that "causes" a flame to emerge but this too is a direct action of God.

So to put it simply, God is the only efficient cause in the entire chain of cause and effect that we observe in the universe including our own thoughts and actions. Taken to an epistemological extreme, there is in fact no physical world at all and the impressions that we have upon our senses are not caused by exterior material phenomenon but are sort of illusions caused by God. I suppose you could think of this as suggesting that we are in the matrix.

Anyway, occasionalism is not Catholic.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jan 18 2006, 02:27 PM']Well, as Catholics we believe that God continually intervenes in the working of the world (not quite the best way of putting it though) this is simply what we call providence. Occasionalism is more radical than that and says that created beings have no potential for efficient causality. The implication of this is that we have no free will for this would involve a causal efficacy outside of God which is precisely what occasionalism denies. So everything activity that occurs is directly an act of God. When you will something you are not willing anything at all but are merely a puppet of God. And when you throw a match into your barbeque grill it is not the flamability of the lighter fluid that "causes" a flame to emerge but this too is a direct action of God.

So to put it simply, God is the only efficient cause in the entire chain of cause and effect that we observe in the universe including our own thoughts and actions. Taken to an epistemological extreme, there is in fact no physical world at all and the impressions that we have upon our senses are not caused by exterior material phenomenon but are sort of illusions caused by God. I suppose you could think of this as suggesting that we are in the matrix.

Anyway, occasionalism is not Catholic.
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I said that in fewer words... :

though not as informative...

[photosynthesis]

it seems like a lot of occasionalism has cropped up into a lot of pentacostal thinking. i have a lot of pentacostal friends, and they say stuff like "the Spirit moved me to call you on the phone" or "I think God's calling you to bring cupcakes to the meeting on wednesday," when really they're just projecting their own desires onto God without any real discernment

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jan 18 2006, 10:23 PM']  i have a lot of pentacostal friends, and they say stuff like "the Spirit moved me to call you on the phone" or "I think God's calling you to bring cupcakes to the meeting on wednesday," when really they're just projecting their own desires onto God without any real discernment
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[Paphnutius]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jan 18 2006, 11:23 PM']it seems like a lot of occasionalism has cropped up into a lot of pentacostal thinking.  i have a lot of pentacostal friends, and they say stuff like "the Spirit moved me to call you on the phone" or "I think God's calling you to bring cupcakes to the meeting on wednesday," when really they're just projecting their own desires onto God without any real discernment
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That really is not Occasionalism. The Spirit can and indeed does move and prompt us to do the will of God and at times this may be doing a certain action. Occasionalism in that instance would be them saying that it is God that is causing them to call you alone. In the case that you gave it could be said that they gave assent of their own will (thus sharing in the cause) to call you.

I think that Occasionalism may be found in [u]The Purpose Driven Life [/u]by Rick Warren. I read a few chapters and would like to read more so that I can put together a comprehensive Catholic response to it. In the first few chapters he says things like: "God left nothing up to chance. He determined your race, location, time of birth, etc...." Which if you take literal and follow the logic then God is the one that decided when your parents would concieve (meaning that that is not their own action that did it), whether the doctor would induce labor or not, what type of gene would show up, etc... It seems to have Occasionalism written all over it. As I said, however, I would like to read the entire book to give him a fair chance at clarifying himself.

As far as bringing cupcakes to the meeting, I do not see why God would ever not want what.

Edited January 19, 2006 by Paphnutius