Theoketos Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 16 2006, 03:48 PM']Typical[s] Republican[/s] Politician ... say one thing and mean another. [right][snapback]858061[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Fixed Torture is contrary to the dignity of the human person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Jan 17 2006, 10:56 AM']Torture is contrary to the dignity of the human person. [right][snapback]858625[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 I'm curious as to how other Bush supporters react to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadreSantiago Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 they close their eyes, plug their ears and go into a cave. It's called selective hearing. They hear what they want. They ignore the murder, treason and theft of our civil liberities and instead focus on more important issues, like homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 This sort of relivant, but what is water boarding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 Its dropping water into a cloth over the face of a victim. The person involuntarily reacts as if they are drowning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 17 2006, 04:08 PM']Its dropping water into a cloth over the face of a victim. The person involuntarily reacts as if they are drowning [right][snapback]859072[/snapback][/right] [/quote] hot stuff, secret master of torture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 So the question is whether such practices count as torture. Also, Do you think that because there is grey area on this (possibly) that is why Bush did not explicitly sign it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I think hot stuff and PadreSantiago need to go outside and play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 We can certainly get into a debate about what constitutes torture. But regardless, Bush circumvented the democratic process by rewriting the law! Congress OVERWHELMINGLY voted this into law. So much so that Bush couldn't exercise a veto on the bill. Conservatives are just as upset about this as liberals. (with the possible exception of Socrates) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 also if his circumventing the torture ban was simply about waterboarding and if he didn't consider it to be torture, Why rewrite the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadreSantiago Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 (edited) Yes come on you elephants why would he do that? Why kind of god-fearing man condones torture? What does it say in the bible about shoving bamboo underneath people fingernails? Here's what the un qualifies as torture: Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. Well artifically drowning someone seems like it's causing severe pain and suffereing both mental and physical to get information. So yes that is torture. Anything you do to cause pain to get information is torture. What does the geneva convention say about torture you may be asking? in an international armed conflict "Protected Persons" under the meaning of GCIV, (see exemptions section immediately after this for those who are not). Under article 32, protected persons have the right to protection from "murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments...but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by non-combatant or military agents." This is sending a bad message down the chain of command. Why do good people resort to torture in the first place? Official encouragement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As the Stanford prison experiment and Milgram experiment show, many people will follow the direction of an authority figure (such as a superior officer) in an official setting (especially if presented as a compulsory obligation), even if they have personal uncertainty. The main motivations for this appear to be fear of loss of status or respect, and the desire to be seen as a "good citizen" or "good subordinate". "You better be a good american and torture this iraqi right now Private Johnson....WHAT YOU WON'T??!!?!? WHY DO YOU LIBERALS HATE AMERICA???" Edited January 18, 2006 by PadreSantiago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadreSantiago Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I just found this this nugget of info from my good friend wikipedia: reports of mock executions by the US Marines in Iraq have surfaced in December 2004 [1], as the ACLU published internal documents of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. The documents were written seven weeks after the publication of the photographs which triggered the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal. That's another thing, the pictures the american public have seen of Abu Ghraib are the light ones! That's nothing there are waaaaay more that haven't been released because they are so embarassing and will make us look even more evil than people already think we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Why are we giving a bill of rights to the ememy? Thats just a little... no wait... completely stupid. Most of the people who praise and want the Mcain anti-torture bill passed will turn a complete 180 when the terrorist nuke New York City, and we find out later we had a terrorist that knew when where and how. We are at war, if the goverment has to "torture" a ememy terrorist to save the life of american so be it. And BTW Real Torture is having your head cut off while the terrorist ememy screams "Allah is Great". Real Torture is having your throat cut with a box cutter by the terrorist ememy. Real Torture is sitting in your seat on a plane and have the terrorist ememy fly the plane in towers filled with thousands of people Real Torture is sitting in your office one second the next being burnt to death by jet fuel. Real Torture is suffocating to death by smoke from burning jet fuel or having the wtc collaspe on thousands of people. We are at War sometimes "torture" is necessary, if we refuse to see it we are geniuses, and more Americans will die because of it. And the Terrorist Ememy will be happy to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 17 2006, 08:17 PM']Why are we giving a bill of rights to the ememy? Thats just a little... no wait... completely stupid. Most of the people who praise and want the Mcain anti-torture bill passed will turn a complete 180 when the terrorist nuke New York City, and we find out later we had a terrorist that knew when where and how. We are at war, if the goverment has to "torture" a ememy terrorist to save the life of american so be it. [. . .] We are at War sometimes "torture" is necessary, if we refuse to see it we are geniuses, and more Americans will die because of it. And the Terrorist Ememy will be happy to see it. [right][snapback]859293[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Woah. I guess Catholic teaching doesn't matter at all compared to the convenience of the US government, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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