What is a living wage?

[peacenluvbaby]

Do menial tasks need to be done? YES

Does someone have to do them? YES

So why should that person make a wage so low that he/she cannot support him/herself and his/her family??? Because we dont want to pay the higher wage, but we want that job done...oh that sounds fair....

[color=green]Also, as far as the DOOM and GLOOMers that say a higher minimum wage will create unemployment - Look at Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Ireland!!!!! These countries have very high wages, good government benefits, employee mobility, child care, unemployment insurance, high education (free through college) and All of them have unemployment rates similar to or lower than the US, yet their standard of living, as ranked by the UN is as high or higher than that of the US though all are in/around the top 10!!! : [/color]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries )

There is something to be said for giving skilled laborers good wages - commensurate with their skills - yet, we cannot leave out other "unskilled" laborers whose jobs are also necessary/beneficial to the community.

We all need to live and it is our right to have a decent standard of living regardless of our "skills."

Just keep shopping at WalMart, never minding that their employees often are on Medicaid/Welfare because the wages are so low!!!!!!!

Do the math!!! California minimum wage is "high" $7.25/hour. So if you work in Los Angeles for 35 hours per week at $7.25 (35 hours because employers dont want to have to give you insurance so they keep you as part time) you make - $253.75/week so $1015/month.

So lets assume that this poor person has a partner (wife/husband) and 2 children...If both work they now make 2030/month So they need:


2 Bedroom Apt $1100 (that is in a very bad neighborhood - I used to pay $700 for a 1 bedroom in the ghetto)
Utilities (not using a/c or other "luxuries") $100
Car or Bus Passes ($52 * 4 people) $208

Total: $1408 so far

So they have $600 left, but wait, the government will deduct Social Security and Medicare from each pay check...so lets say they have $500 left.

[color=purple]With this $500 they still need to worry about:
Health Insurance/Medicine/Dental???
FOOD ???
Clothing???
Anything "fun" they ever want to do.

Do you think you could feed and clothe 4 people on $500 per month? and I guess hope they never get sick or anything because you have no insurance.... [/color]:bugeyes:

Peace people!

[desertwoman]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Jan 18 2006, 05:45 AM']I don't understand why society must provide a 'living wage' for tasks so menial and unskilled?  According to the article, less than 3% of the US workers attempt to support themselves and/or a family at minimum wage.  I'm dead set against an artifical 'living wage' because it doesn't really address the problem of endemic poverty.  I've hired unskilled workers for decades and my father's been involved in St. Vincent De Paul for 50+ years.  What is needed is access to training, temporary rent subsidies, transportation assistance, subsidized day care, and subsidized basic medical care.  People need assistance to take advantage of the opportunities to succeed.  [b]Most people (not all) in low paying jobs are under-acheivers and only work enough to get food and pay rent and don't apply themselves. [/b] This is based on my experience with the many hundreds of people I've hired over the years.  You don't need a college education to make $50 to $80 grand a year with full benefits, you need a work ethic.
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I grasp what you are saying JasJis and I agree with you, but I also see a lack of passion. That they are satisfied with surviving instead of living because their spirits are broken.

Have you ever looked into their faces and see the blankness there... that this is not where they are suppose to be and it depresses them greatly. They don't want to be there, but they know that they have to be there to put food on the table and to keep a roof over their heads. It hurts for I'm in that same position. There is no fire, no drive in this job. I'm doing it to the best of my ability for I know I have bills to pay, but to call this job a career that I love to go to and do... no.

The sense that he/she has failed and is left with a job that he/she doesn't like but does because the money is needed leeds to drones. I'll do what you tell me to do because you are my boss... period. I take no joy into what I do, I"m here for the check to feed myself and my family.

"For once you break a man's spirit, then you truly destroy him"- An

[peacenluvbaby]

Dont insult low wage earners. Just because you were born into a family that values education, that could afford to feed you well and provide you with a healthy childhood. Lucky You!

Underachievers...please!!!!!!! How unchristian!

Most low wage earners entered the work force young, often to help their families survive, and because they had jobs, they could not finish an education. There is also the question of the poor state of educational facilities in low income neighborhood. I've tutored seniors in high school who were smart but couldnt spell because they had had lousy teachers in overcrowded schools, no or few extracurriculars, no one on one attention.....
Oh yeah...the POOR WANT TO BE POOR...RIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!

That's a cheap excuse of people who have no interest in helping the poor and are so scared that they could become poor that they cling tightly to the measly money bag in their fist.

I apologize for the venom...It's not personal.

Peace out!

[Azriel]

To say that most (not all) wage earners are underacheivers is possibly the most insulting thing I have ever heard.

While your experience, J, may show you that - my experience is totally, and completely different.

There really is something to be said for walking a mile in someone's shoes.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Jan 18 2006, 09:13 AM']To say that most (not all) wage earners are underacheivers is possibly the most insulting thing I have ever heard.

While your experience, J, may show you that - my experience is totally, and completely different.

There really is something to be said for walking a mile in someone's shoes.
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I'm equally insulted.

Jas, you can't make generalizations like that and expect to be taken seriously.

[jasJis]

I ask you both, how many people have you hired and fired? Yes, I do look in their faces. I employ them and work with my Church's SVDPS to give them jobs. I list my jobs with the unemployment agency. No, I'm not highly educated. I graduated high school like my parents and most of my siblings. My grandparents were immigrants with no education. I have had employees who can't speak or read the english who become foremen within two years and make more the $40k plus company paid insurance. I've also have had american born english speaking w/ 2 years of college education work for me and I've fired them for incompentence.
I have an employee who makes $12/hr (plus bennies such as co. subsidized insurance) who raises 4 kids, wife stays home, a good man. He will never become a foreman because he lacks the intelligence. I pay him more than he's ever been paid because he works hard, always shows up, is never lazy, is dependable, honest, etc. He also gets a bit of help from the Government for medical stuff. What's wrong with that?
I recently fired a guy who has twice the intelligence and experience, was paid $16 an hour plus bennies, was offered terrific opportunity for advancement and could make more within months, had 2 adopted kids to take care of, had no spouse. He lost his job because working 40 hours a week was too much. We work 4 10 hour days. He always wanted off to pay a utility bill, do this, do that. He had Fridays to do these things. We offered to mail his bills or have someone else make payments during errands. Heck, I personally paid his electric bill with my money one month.
Not everybody puts the same effort in a job. If you are an adult, you are responsible to do the best that you are able. After you accomplish that, you can ask for help to meet NEEDS.

[Carrie]

I've never hired or fired anyone.

But I've been one of the people hired at minimum wage, working [b]hard[/b] 70-80 hours a week to make ends meet and still fell short.

[jasJis]

And for you stupid people, I clearly said: "Most people (not all) in low paying jobs are under-acheivers and only work enough to get food and pay rent and don't apply themselves."

Most is not all. I also have walked in their shoes. I've been poorer than most of you can imagine. I have a high school education. I've spent 30+ years working in construction so I speak from experience. Less than 2 years ago I was unemployed and shoveled asphalt fro $10 an hour for months in the Florida summer. Shut the hell up if you think I don't know what low pay and hard work is. I still put food on the table for my wife and our 2 teenage kids. My wife still worked part time because being a parent is our top priority. I paid the mortgage and utility bills. I got NO frigging help from the Government because I wasn't broke long enough. No, I didn't have thousands (or hundreds) in the bank. I worked beside men who have been doing the same thing for years because with food stamps, AFDC, free healthcare, etc., that's all they had to do to 'get by'.
I get to where I am by frigging earning it and applying myself. Sure, it would be great to work only 40 hours a week and have hobbies and stuff while I work at the 7-11 selling slurpees and lotto tickets. I happen to believe I have a little more ability and responsibilty than that. So hate me for it.

Carrie. If you aren't making it at what you are doing, then get another job, change your lifestyle, put some effort into changing your life [b]before[/b] you ask me to give you some of my earnings that I work pretty beaver dam hard for to take care of my family.

Edited January 18, 2006 by jasJis

[Jaime]

I don't recall Carrie asking for anything from you. I also don't recall how a living wage would take anything out of others earnings.

That's kind of

Oh I don't know

stupid?

[Carrie]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Jan 18 2006, 09:47 AM']Carrie.  If you aren't making it at what you are doing, then get another job, change your lifestyle, put some effort into changing your life [b]before[/b] you ask me to give you some of my earnings that I work pretty beaver dam hard for to take care of my family.
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I said I've [b]been[/b], not am. Past tense Jas. I'm currently a therapist with a graduate degree doing very well for myself. Good of you to assume.

I didn't ask you for anything but a little sensitivity for those who are in those shoes. I understand you said most, not all. I still disagree with you. Saying "most" is still too generalized.

Also, why so angry? I was just having a discussion with you. I didn't insult you or come at you in an angry way. I was only trying to tell you why I found your statement to be insensitive. Lighten up Jas.

[jasJis]

Um. Let's see. Carrie said my statement was personally insulting to her. She also said that I could not make generalizations and be taken serious. I pointed out I clearly said most, not all, to address her over sensitivity that resulted in her feeling 'insulted'. I was stating experience observations and as such it is more than a generalization and thusly, her claim that it can't be taken 'seriously' is without merit.

I also addressed Az's comment about walking a mile in somebody else's shoe.

And hot stuff, as far as paying an artificially higher 'living' wage, where do you think the money comes from? Doyou think it floats down from the atmosphere? The additional pay would first come out of the business owner's profit (assuming he's making a profit.) The business owner would see his costs rise and make adjustments to offset that cost. Maybe that cost would be cutting back on overtime for the workers, maybe it would be reducing their benifits, maybe it would be charging more for their product or service. The extra money given in an artifically higher pay comes from somebody eventually.

BTW, Carrie. I did not assume. I predicated my statement with the word "If". That seems pretty clear. And what experience and/or facts do you have to say that 'most' is innaccurate? I've seen many hundreds (maybe more than a thousand) low paying workers by working with them, either as a peer or as a supervisor. Then throw in all the other people I've known in other companies as workers or supervisors and I'll say I've got a pretty good picture. How many people from the Unemployent office have you interviewed in the last 10 years? How many people seeking help from your church have you met and offered jobs or discussed with their case worker? How many people in work release have you dealt with. Have you talked to more than 1 parole officer in your life?

Edited January 18, 2006 by jasJis

[philothea]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Jan 18 2006, 05:45 AM']What is needed is access to training, temporary rent subsidies, transportation assistance, subsidized day care, and subsidized basic medical care.  People need assistance to take advantage of the opportunities to succeed. 
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I completely agree with this bit. (I'm not knowledgable enough to speak to the rest.) Setting a wage standard is easier for legislators, because it doesn't cost any tax revenue.

Disclaimer: I am a useless parasite.

[Jaime]

It is the moral obligation of any ethical employer to pay a living wage Jas. There is nothing artificial about it.

[quote]2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice. In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. "[b]Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good[/b]." Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.[/quote]

Unless of course you think the Magesterium is stupid too

[Azriel]

J - no one said you didn't have your experience - and Yes I still find it insulting. And don't go all angry on me because I have an opinion. My opinion is that you've no right, experience or not, to judge someone making a low wage an underachiever. Things are just not that simplistic.

Have I had to hire and fire? No. Did I watch my father struggle for years and years to make it, with no insurance at times, while my mother was disabled? Did I watch him struggle to get through school, while there was no money? Did I watch my Mother apply for SSI, JUST FOR THE INSURANCE? and get denied because my Dad made too much money on UNEMPLOYMENT? Yes, I did. Not once did my Father allow my mother to apply for Welfare, because of his pride. His only concession in that regard was to agree for her to apply to SSI which didn't help anyway.

And did I cry when he graduated from College the year after I did? Yes I did, because I know what he went through to get me to the point that I could graduate.

Now he works a job as a middle manager where he has to fire and hire people who make low wages. And some of those people are incredibly hard working, and some of them aren't.

So yes, based on your experience, it may not be a generalization. But based on mine, its insulting to everyone who has busted their buttocks in low paying jobs to support and better themselves.

[jasJis]

hot stuff, do you even read what you post. What about this part: "taking into account the role and productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good." Also, "determining the needs and contributions of each person must be taken into account".

I'd love to make a living wage as a bathroom attendant that hands out papertowels and cologne. But I don't think that the role, productivity, common good, or my contribution deserves a living wage doing that.

Az,
I'm angered [b]and[/b] insulted that you feel I have no right to state my experience of low pay workers being under achievers. I never said 'all', nor did I say your dad was an underachiever.

Edited January 18, 2006 by jasJis