Church on Monogamy/Monandry/Premarital Sex

[peacenluvbaby]

Hello Fellow Humans (and catholics)
I was wondering if you had any thoughts - real thinking, not knee jerk reactions - to the basis for the idea of monogamy (monoandry for us girls) and the ban of premarital sex. I just want to be better informed so as to help others see the way the Church does and WHY.

Now, I'm not trying to be radical, but here is the basis of my questions and I would like straight up, non-preachy answers, if you will be so kind.

1. In the 10 Commandments, "fornication" or premarital sex is not specifically mentioned, though adultery is as is "coveting" another's wife. - I see the point of not wanting adultery - one is breaking a covenant and legal obligation undertaken at marriage; envy is also a source of great strife within a marriage. - So how can you base a prohibition of premarital sex, on pain of mortal sin, on that commandment?

2. Monandry and Monogamy are not found by and large in nature - even the penguins everyone points to are only monogamous for one mating season. Thus I don't see a "nature" argument going very far.

3. Since marriage is a lifelong commitment, the utility of knowing your future partner's sexuality/preferences could be seen as a necessity for commitment. If my boyfriend wants to live in Alaska and I hate the cold - that would be a deal-breaker/no marriage. Thus if Jen has certain needs/sexuality and John has incompatible needs/sexuality, don't we want to know that before we sign up for marriage?

4. Lastly, knowing that premarital sex is prohibited, why do some catholics insist on the "if you commit one sin, don't make it two by using protection/contraceptives"? If a person is disregarding the catholic teaching on sexuality, then why should they cling to that one piece - no contraceptives - that will actually make their sexual behavior more risky and in the long run damage their future and perhaps the future of an "accidental" child? (single mothers and their children consistently occupy the lowest levels of poverty in the United States and around the world - guys can walk away) It seems schizophrenic.

Peace out!

[avemaria40]

Wow, you have a lot of questions, so I'll try and answer them as best as i can

It's true that the Ten Commandments don't mention premarital sex or monogamy/monandry, but it is specific in the Gospels and the Epistles (1 Cor 6:18, Matt 19:9 etc) Also, even if animals, like penguins, aren't exactly monagomous animals, primates such as gorillas tend to be monogamous (since many only have one mate)Do you know that our bodies were made for monogamy? For example, how come if a girl has slept with more than three guys, she's more likely to get cervical cancer? And during sex, a hormone called oxytocin is produced which makes the two people feel closer to each other, so there are emotional consequences if a couple decided to break up but still felt the strong bond that sex can produce between two people.

As for the whole Alaska thing, that's something you find out through communication, which is why communication is so important in a relationship, and as for sexual compatibility, how come couples who wait till marriage are more likely to stay married and have better love lives than their counterparts? marriage is about love and commitment, not how things are in the boudoir. Sex is about love and babies (not at all saying you should have as many kids as you can, but that it's a natural part), and if two people love each other, it won't matter, and you'll have many years to get to know what you like, etc.

Now, for the part of contraceptives, it's not, "if you commit one sin, don't make it two," it's "don't do any of those at all" I agree, it isn't fair that guys get to leave while girls have to do everything, in fact, i think that laws should be enforced that force fathers to pay child support and we should definetly help single moms who go through this (remember "help the widows and orphans"?) We should make people aware of the consequences of their actions and tell them thatthese things do happen even with birth control. We should also do a better job of emphasizing committment and responsibility in relationships. Lastly, if they don't cling to one piece of this teaching, why would they cling to another?


Good questions! Those got me thinking! BTW welcome to Phatmass and you have a cool screen name

Edited January 16, 2006 by avemaria40

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:41 AM']1.  In the 10 Commandments, "fornication" or premarital sex is not specifically mentioned, though adultery is as is "coveting" another's wife.  - I see the point of not wanting adultery - one is breaking a covenant and legal obligation undertaken at marriage; envy is also a source of great strife within a marriage. - So how can you base a prohibition of premarital sex, on pain of mortal sin, on that commandment?[right][snapback]857516[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]Because while the Decalogue serves as the basis of moral conduct, it is not exhaustive nor detailed enough to cover every "Thou shalt no.t"

[quote]2.  Monandry and Monogamy are not found by and large in nature - even the penguins everyone points to are only monogamous for one mating season.  Thus I don't see a "nature" argument going very far.  [/quote]But we are humna, created in the image of GOD. We have the gift of reason and are expected to us it, so while the nature argument as you say is not going very far, there are others. To be created in imago Dei is a huge gift and enables use to act like God in some aspects (free will, use of reason, etc...) One should remember that God chose Israel (which then became the Church) to make a covenant with in which there are often marriage terms used. Refer to prophet Hosea is it(?), that God tells him to marry a prostitute so the prophet will know God's pain of having a spouse cheat.

[quote]3.  Since marriage is a lifelong commitment, the utility of knowing your future partner's sexuality/preferences could be seen as a necessity for commitment.  If my boyfriend wants to live in Alaska and I hate the cold - that would be a deal-breaker/no marriage.  Thus if Jen has certain needs/sexuality and John has incompatible needs/sexuality, don't we want to know that before we sign up for marriage?
[/quote]Those are things that should be discussed before marriage. A couple should talk about kids, family, and possible sexual expectations the closer one comes to marriage. It is probably best for an engaged couple to speak to the pastor about this.

[peacenluvbaby]

Ok, I see some of your points..Thanks for answering. And about the communication thing - do you really think it's possible to have such an explicit conversation with a "conservative" catholic boyfriend/girlfriend? Many conservatives I've met get red at just the mention of sex.

[philothea]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:41 AM']Hello Fellow Humans (and catholics) 
I was wondering if you had any thoughts - real thinking, not knee jerk reactions - to the basis for the idea of monogamy (monoandry for us girls) and the ban of premarital sex.  I just want to be better informed so as to help others see the way the Church does and WHY.

Now, I'm not trying to be radical, but here is the basis of my questions and I would like straight up, non-preachy answers, if you will be so kind.
[/quote]
I'm assuming you're not Catholic? Because the ultimate "Catholic" answer is that the Church says so, and we believe the Church was established by God in order to teach us.... and our personal logic isn't especially important... beyond the obvious initial "Does God exist?" and "Is the Catholic Church true?"

But anyway...

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:41 AM']1.  In the 10 Commandments, "fornication" or premarital sex is not specifically mentioned, though adultery is as is "coveting" another's wife.  - I see the point of not wanting adultery - one is breaking a covenant and legal obligation undertaken at marriage; envy is also a source of great strife within a marriage. - So how can you base a prohibition of premarital sex, on pain of mortal sin, on that commandment?
[/quote]
I haven't recently analyzed the exact language used in Exodus, so I am not sure if the term for "adultery" includes "fornication" -- but there is no question that Jewish law forbid fornication. It was punished by death.

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:41 AM']2.  Monandry and Monogamy are not found by and large in nature - even the penguins everyone points to are only monogamous for one mating season.  Thus I don't see a "nature" argument going very far. 
[/quote]
It's found in some species, and it seems very obviously innate in human kind. Marriage is universal throughout all cultures, and more ancient than recorded history.

Besides, we're not animals.

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:41 AM']3.  Since marriage is a lifelong commitment, the utility of knowing your future partner's sexuality/preferences could be seen as a necessity for commitment.  If my boyfriend wants to live in Alaska and I hate the cold - that would be a deal-breaker/no marriage.  Thus if Jen has certain needs/sexuality and John has incompatible needs/sexuality, don't we want to know that before we sign up for marriage?
[/quote]
There's a whole lot more to marriage than sex, and being "compatible" sexually -- while remaining in a Catholic context -- is kind of a strange idea. You have the right parts and you find each other reasonably attractive... that's good enough.

It's foolish to assume that you can ever "test drive" someone well enough to determine whether you'll get along perfectly forever. You won't get along perfectly forever. No one ever does. You love and sacrifice and make it work anyhow.

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:41 AM']4.  Lastly, knowing that premarital sex is prohibited, why do some catholics insist on the "if you commit one sin, don't make it two by using protection/contraceptives"?  If a person is disregarding the catholic teaching on sexuality, then why should they cling to that one piece - no contraceptives - that will actually make their sexual behavior more risky and in the long run damage their future and perhaps the future of an "accidental" child? (single mothers and their children consistently occupy the lowest levels of poverty in the United States and around the world - guys can walk away)  It seems schizophrenic.
[right][snapback]857516[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
No Catholic says what you've quoted. What you might be misunderstanding is that we don't approve of giving out contraceptives to teenagers (or others) [i]on the assumption they cannot resist sex[/i] because that gives tacit permission.

The Church teaches that using contraceptives is wrong (and this is a separate discussion)... and it would be completely ridiculous to make an exception and tell people it's okay to do something [i]inherently evil[/i] because it's socially convenient.

THAT would be schizophrenic.


Hope this helps. to phatmass!

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 11:11 AM']Ok, I see some of your points..Thanks for answering.  And about the communication thing - do you really think it's possible to have such an explicit conversation with a "conservative" catholic boyfriend/girlfriend?  Many conservatives I've met get red at just the mention of sex. 
[right][snapback]857544[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Definitely possible.

"Theology of the Body", "Love and Responsibility", etc. are very explicit and "graphic" in regards to sex. Maturity and knowledge can offset the redness of one's face when these topics are discussed. And this topic is an extremely important one for serious (i.e., engaged/betrothed) couples to discuss.

[peacenluvbaby]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:15 AM']I'm assuming you're not Catholic?  Because the ultimate "Catholic" answer is that the Church says so, and we believe the Church was established by God in order to teach us.... and our personal logic isn't especially important... beyond the obvious initial "Does God exist?" and "Is the Catholic Church true?"
[right][snapback]857549[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]



Actually - I am catholic. I just want the reasons behind.

To me, "the Church says so" is a somewhat spurious catholic excuse for remaining ignorant about the "whys" of the world. If everyone accepted the "says so" idea, i dont thing we would have no philosophers, theologians or even great scientists.

Thanks for the Love/Responsibility tip

Peace people!

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:52 AM']  If everyone accepted the "says so" idea, i dont thing we would have no philosophers, theologians or even great scientists.
[/quote]
I understand where you are coming from, but there are some issues that we must accept purely on authority, and that is what we call faith. How do you know that Jesus is God? How do you know that Modernism is a heresy? You can research and pull together arguments but it will all eventually pivot on Scripture or Tradition saying so. Not to disuade you from going out there and learning by asking questions, but just to point out there are some things that we have to accept on authority.

[crazymaine catholic]

i've always kind of thought that the adultery commandment covered premarital sex. adultery is sex outside of marriage right? if adultery is cheating on a spouse, wouldn't it also follow that cheating on your future spouse is adulterous too? i've always just thought that adultery is sex outside of marriage, plain and simple.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Jan 16 2006, 11:52 AM']
Actually - I am catholic.  I just want the reasons behind.
[right][snapback]857590[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
That's a great outlook. It's good to know your faith, and even better to know WHY you profess to believe what you do.



... and I highly recommend "Love and Responsibility" by Karol Wojtyla (aka John Paul II). Any Conservative Catholic should be able to read Wojtyla's book and come away with a very positive and Church/Christ-centered view on human sexuality. Christopher West also has a book for serious Catholic couples called "The Good News about Sex and Marriage" which would be right up the alley of someone looking for an explanation of Church teachings on sexuality in basic and easy-to-read form (Christopher West is a quicker read than "Love and Responsibility" because JPII uses a lot of philosophical and systematic theological terms in his writing)

Book linkage:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0898704456/qid=1137442202/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4725397-8745536?s=books&v=glance&n=283155"]Love and Responsibility[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0867166193/qid=1137442260/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4725397-8745536?s=books&v=glance&n=283155"]Good News About Sex and Marriage[/url]

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jan 16 2006, 03:07 PM']... and I highly recommend "Love and Responsibility" by Karol Wojtyla (aka John Paul II). Any Conservative Catholic should be able to read Wojtyla's book and come away with a very positive and Church/Christ-centered view on human sexuality. [/url]
[right][snapback]857826[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

That is, until your brain starts to hemorrhage in trying to understand it, or putting it down in sheer frustration of having to read the same sentence 10 times

I have still been unable to get through that book. This book makes Kant's [i]Critique of Pure Reason[/i] look like a children's book in comparison

God Bless

[phatcatholic]

as far as pre-marital sex is concerned, see the following entry from the directory:

Sex Before Marriage
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/600"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/600[/url]

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='crazymaine catholic' date='Jan 16 2006, 01:01 PM']i've always kind of thought that the adultery commandment covered premarital sex. adultery is sex outside of marriage right? if adultery is cheating on a spouse, wouldn't it also follow that cheating on your future spouse is adulterous too? i've always just thought  that adultery is sex outside of marriage, plain and simple.
[right][snapback]857815[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
No. adultery is when at least one of two parties is married. (It is also a sin against commutative justice to the partner). Fornication is the sexual union of two unmarried people, voluntary on both parts.

[crazymaine catholic]

ok. thanks for the clarification.