Catholicism Against Itself

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:21 PM']HERE'S THE LIST AGAIN! IF YOUR NOT AFRAID PAPA WILL STOP YOU ,READ THE MATERIAL. if you can't read have LD read it for  you he's a scholar. Most of you DON'T read that's your Problem! Your the prostitute of your PIMP!
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Dont worry phatpham. I used to be just like this guy. I felt so good about myself, so righteous about convincing other about how wrong they were (and naturally, how right I was). The yeast of the pharisees is easy to swallow and difficult to get out of your system but believe me with time and prayer even the proudest e.g. yours truly can be cured.

[2tim215]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 16 2006, 11:29 AM'][SIZE=1][SIZE=1][SIZE=1]
You'll believe anything that [mod]sorry, no calling the Holy Father that on my watch.  ~az[/mod] POPE tells you! Your Religion is a conglomeration of all PAGAN Beliefs! YOU don't Know what your talking about! Statues, Candles, Relics, Marys MILK!, OH come on now! Give me a break!  You Ignorant PROSTITUTES
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If you Had a watch you wouldn't be able to tell time anyway!

[Paphnutius]

But Tim, you do not respond to what he has to say. Here we like to address things one at a time rather than the shotgun approach. Besides you said:[quote]Sorry been reading so much of ya'lls questions and answers on the boards, I get so sad at all the misinformation you have been fed through the years that I didn't know where to begin! All I know is that it doen't coinside with Bible Doctrine for the New Testament Church, Sooo Sad! I sent one message that I would like an answer to The father deal? 2tim215, [b]If you Can, answer that, I'll be satisfied and not bother you again, II Tim. 3:10-11 [/b][/quote]LD answered and you have not really responded just said he lacked context...which I believe many would disagree with you.

[2tim215]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 14 2006, 09:15 PM']    Has anyone read these 2 books? If so please comment on them Please!  2tim215
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[/quote] This the original Question! I'll I've been given is a rash of catholic nonsense. Read the material and then get back to me OK? Then you'll have the catholic authority from which the things I am curious about from your own kind! By the way w hat is your Authority for all matters of Faith and Practice?

[musturde]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 16 2006, 04:39 PM']If you Had a watch you wouldn't be able to tell time anyway!
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lol... Thank you tim, you've made my very boring day now very amusing. Tell me, is your Church full of people just like you?

[desertwoman]

How embarrasing. This makes me ashamed of being a protestant.

[Era Might]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 16 2006, 06:01 PM']I told you before I  am NOT protestant!  That is a branch off your ununited church!  Baptist Bible Believers have been around longer than all religions, that's why you try to kill us off! But, we get stronger and stronger CHECK YOUR HISTORY!  By the way,[mod]we don't talk that way and toss out acusations around here[/mod]  You People (and I use that word very LOOSELY) sicken me! 2tim215
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Take a deep sigh, step back, and return when you can show us the gentleness and reverence we deserve.

1Peter 3:15

[dustthouart]

I want to believe this guy is a troll...
The way L_D blew his arguments to smithereens, and then tim refused to respond to the argument, instead saying "Well I'm out of here!" It's the essence of cowardice.
I'd like to thank you, Tim, for affirming me in my decision to convert to the ONE TRUE CHURCH, under the successor of Peter, our Pope Benedict.
:

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Jan 16 2006, 06:08 PM']How embarrasing.  This makes me ashamed of being a protestant.
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Aw, we love Protestants here... We just don't like them to call us or our Pope names...

[musturde]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jan 16 2006, 05:14 PM']Aw, we love Protestants here... We just don't like them to call us or our Pope names...

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Exactly Tim, if you wanted to convert us, you'd at least show charity. Maybe pull a Jehova's Witnesses stunt on us and do a full 12 step proccess. I'd personally denounce my evil satanic beliefs if you showed me either girls or food (preferably both).

[desertwoman]

Thanks homeschoolmom. I just don't like rudeness as such, and then not to provide a good argument is bad enough in itself.

But to say that he is not a protestant is completly stupid. To say that Baptists (or even if he is anabaptist) has been around longer than Catholicism is ridiculous. Protestant came from the word protest. They protested with certain doctrines of the Church; thus making them protesters who are continuing to protest against the Church.

Its simple as one two three. We learned this in third grade social studies. Its taught again in History 101 in college. Its baffling how some protestants are trying their best to try to distance themselves from the Catholic Church by saying..."oh we are not protestants for saying and aknowledging that we are protestant means that we broke off from the Church... which means that we have the same Bible as the Catholic church but severly abridged... that we both believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." God forbid that.

Sorry for the rant, but this really gets my goat.

[Quietfire]

As a former protestant who has a mother who is Baptist, you're right Desertwoman. Tim should be ashamed of himself. If being like him is being Baptist, then I should show my mother this thread.....she would be shocked!!!

Tim, why do you keep quoting entire posts with nothing to add? Like post 54. Is that your way of keeping the thread going?

Bro Adam, I loved your response to Tim.
Ahhh Bro Adam...you lovable former Baptist you. Have a ball Bro.

Oh, and by the way Tim...
I used to be Protestant too.
























Then I grew up and put away childish things.


Pax.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Quietfire

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 16 2006, 05:54 PM']This the original Question! I'll I've been given is a rash of catholic nonsense.  Read the material and then get back to me OK? Then you'll have the catholic authority from which the things I am curious about from your own kind!  By the way w hat is your Authority for all matters of Faith and Practice?
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Those books are not exactly easy to come by. Where can we find them?

Our authority is Tradition, Scripture, and the Magisterium. The Bible is a product of the Church's authority to declare what books were inspired by God. Where do you think the Bible comes from?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 16 2006, 04:21 PM']You hit the nail on the head! But, you have it wrong, catholics are not educated in truth, just what you are ALLOWED to read, dictated from your papa. Can you send me a list of books ya'll are not allowed to read? You know like [b]Foxes Book of Martyrs[/b], etc. You know Martin Luther was a MAN that tried to get the church staightened out, a long with Huss, [b]Savonarola[/b], and many, many others that were butchard by your CHURCH and still it goes on today Spain, Ulstra, etc. Why the Sword when we have the book? (Psa.138:2) God came to earth 1st as a Lamb, He is coming back as a LION! Don"t ya'll owe it to your selves to seek the truth, God will give you the truth if You truely seek it, if not He will give you the lie you seek!  The Capitals are in the Holy Bible! (MYSTERY). 1-800-321-4587 to get the book. (Mars Hill Bookstore). If you are interested in truth seek out these books: Paul Blanshard; American Freedom and Catholic Power, 1958. William Forbush, ed.; [b]Foxes Book of Martyrs[/b], 1926.  Alexander Hislop; The Two Babylons, 1916. Avro Manhattan; Religious Terror in Ireland, 1971. The Vatican Billions,1983. The Vatican Imperialism in the Twentiwth Century, 1965. The Vatican Moscow Washington Alliance, 1972. Samuel Morland, The Churches of the Valley of the Piedmont, 1975. Paul Peterson, The Rise of the Roman Catholic Church, 1960. R.W. Thompson, Footprints of the Jeuits, 1894. and many more, Baron Porcelli, The Antichrist, 1920. James Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 1917. Joseph McCabe, The Black International Series, 1942-1944. Joseph Zacchello, Secerts of Romanism,1948. August Hasler, How the Pope Became Infallible, 1981. Guenter Levy, The Catholic Church andNazi Germany, 1964. I PRAY for ya'll, as Iam Commanded to tell the TRUTH of God to ALL. I Shant want Blood of my Hands at The Judgment Seat of Christ! I Tim. 1:4; 4:7; 6:3-10,20-21; 1:9-11; II Tim. 2:9,15,16,25,26; 3:5,16; 4:1-6; 3:8-11. With Charity, 2itm215  P.S. that was Zech 10:2, My mistake
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This "Book of Martyrs" text has been mentioned several times, and since I am pretty familiar with it I thought I might comment a bit. I am pretty familiar with a couple of the other texts you mentioned and might throw out my two cents later, although I'm sure many here are quite acquainted with the general themes which have been popularized by people like Jack Chick.

Foxe's book is largely a work of fiction, it has about as much credibility as the Da Vinci Code. All one must do is compare the "historical" accounts presented in this book with those of authentic historical research. And I'm not talking about Catholic scholars, one can look to secular and even protestant sources and clearly see that the book you keep mentioning is hog wash. Even simply comparing the original 16th century edition with the many later revisions will demonstrate that the book has undergone a pretty substantial evolution. The later versions contradict the older editions because some of the claims made in past versions were so unbelievable and absurd that it was something of an embarrassment to the anti-Catholics. If this simple fact does not suffice to discredit the text, perhaps a couple examples pertinent to the most modern edition will suffice?

I will just mention a couple of the distortions that are particularly obnoxious and absurd:

Foxe claims that several heretical sects and many heretical individuals in history who were "persecuted" by the Church were in fact "Bible Christians"; among these are included the Waldensians and the Albigensians. Here is a wee quote:
[i]"The Albigenses were a people of the reformed religion, who inhabited the country of Albi." - Book of Martyrs, Chapter 4[/i]

It is an unfathomably ludicrous claim to say that the Albigensians were of the "reformed religion". What do we actually know of the Albigensians?
The Albigensians were neo-manichaeans, they were not even Christian. They were a branch of the ridiculous Cathari movement who are also claimed to be "reformed christians".

We actually know a great deal about the belief and practice of the Cathari/Albigensians. Here are some of their more unusual beliefs:
- Denial of the resurrection of the body
- Gnostic dualism (matter is evil, two "gods": good god and evil god, etc.)
- Denial of eternal damnation
- Endorsed suicide (especially commendable if done by starvation & ritual suicide)
- Forbade marriage, considered fornication superior.
- "Converts" were encouraged to abandon their spouse.
- Child bearing was considered evil.
- Eating meat was considered immoral.
- Belief in reincarnation.
- Christ was merely an angelic being with a phantom body
- Christ did not suffer and die for our sins, or rise from the dead
- Total denial of the redemption, Christ merely came to teach.
- Satan, the evil "god", created the physical world
- Naturally they rejected things such as the Trinity and the Virgin Birth.

Some held the following:
- The Old Testament patriarchs were all damned.
- John the Baptist was a minister of satan sent to thwart Christ's work.

Some even went so far as the reject the Old Testament entirely. This is why the old rule of the Franciscan order states that brothers who refuse the pray the psalms could be expelled from the order. A refusal to pray the psalms would indicate an Albigensian view that the Old Testament is evil. If you don't believe me I would suggest going to a library and getting some books on Christian history by secular historians and respected protestant historians and look up the Albigensians.

Foxe also claims that the Waldensians were a sort of persecuted underground group of "Bible" Christians. One of the problems I have with this is that their heresy does not even vaguely resemble protestantism (or "reformed" christianity, or the baptist religion, etc.)
For one thing Waldensians highly encouraged making a vow of poverty and renouncing marriage. And while I admit that the Waldensians were heretics who denied certain teachings of the Church, they were actually much more Catholic doctrinally then you might think. Waldensians were encouraged to embrace a life of itinerant preaching, and the primary theme of their preaching was that of sacramental confession and the Eucharist. In fact they typically did not see a problem with going to the Catholic Mass and receiving Holy Communion. And as I mentioned they went to confession.

Foxe says this:
[i]The principal among these was Berengarius, who, about the year 1000, boldly preached Gospel truths, according to their primitive purity. - Book of Martyrs, Chapter 4[/i]

Berengarius was not a Waldensian, he was a Catholic clergyman and a Catholic scholar of the famous school of Chartres. He was a practicing Catholic and the only serious controversy in his life that I know of is his involvement in some controversy regarding the Eucharist. In his writings he never denies the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he just had a heretical explanation of it (his theory of the symbolic dimension of the Eucharist was at odds with transubstantiation, but he didn't deny that Christ's Body and Blood was truly present in the Eucharist), which isn't surprising since he was a philosophical nominalist. And it must be noted that he died in full communion with the Catholic Church; hardly an ancient protestant.

You also mentioned Savonarola. While Savonarola was certainly a sharp critic of the Church hierarchy and was actively rousing schism in the Church, he was Catholic. As far as I know he was never condemned as a heretic. The man was a monk and actually a pretty decent Thomist.
The Catholic Encylopedia says:
[i]In the beginning Savonarola was filled with zeal, piety, and self-sacrifice for the regeneration of religious life. He was led to offend against these virtues by his fanaticism, obstinacy, and disobedience. He was not a heretic in matters of faith.[/i]

Anyway, these are just a couple of the many fictions contained in Foxe's book (and repeated in many other books of this class, as well as the famous Jack Chick tracts). It's too bad that so many protestants get their education in history from comic books.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='Jan 16 2006, 06:08 PM']How embarrasing.  This makes me ashamed of being a protestant.
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There are two different types of Protestants - rational and irrational. Tim is utterly irrational and isn't interested in dialogue. And as someone else said. We love Protestants