Catholicism Against Itself

[2tim215]

Has anyone read these 2 books? If so please comment on them Please! 2tim215

[Theoketos]

The best response to these two works of falsity and fallacy is "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keeting. They are so rediculous even protestant academics shun them.

Edit

L_D otherwise gave a great answer to the question on another board.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Theoketos

[2tim215]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jan 15 2006, 08:35 AM']The best response to these two works of falsity and fallacy is "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keeting. They are so rediculous even protestant academics shun them.

Edit

L_D otherwise gave a great answer to the question on another board.
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[2tim215]

You all have answered as I expected, see you at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, I heard a tape of Keeting and a man Peter S. Ruckman in a debate and Keeting Fell on his FACE and could not give answers to simple matters of his own faith, just as you all are doing! MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The book in question is ALL your Catholic Traditions and Doctrines which are in conflict with the word of God! Zech. 2:10; 11:17; Rev. 18:

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 15 2006, 01:04 PM']You all have answered as I expected, see you at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT, I heard a tape of Keeting and a man Peter S. Ruckman in a debate and Keeting Fell on his FACE and could not give answers to simple matters of his own faith, just as you all are doing! MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The book in question is ALL your Catholic Traditions and Doctrines which are in conflict with the word of God! Zech. 2:10; 11:17; Rev. 18:
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Gosh I'm good.. All along I suspected that your intention was to proselytize.

Anyway, present an argument and let's have at it.

P.S. What other kind of replies would you have expected from such non-questions?

[Theoketos]

I suppose that this means I am going to have to check out the book from the library and quote at least one fallacy in the book. In the mean time...

I do think that it odd that if we answered as you expected, then it seems a waste of time for you to be here.

That being said the book is only two volumes long, IF the Catholic Church is wrong surely it contains more errors then that.

Also, I did not mention any debate as the answer to the book, but another book. It really is a good read. As far a public speaking concerning Keeting that is neather here nor there.

Why do you not pick one issue at time and lets work through it in Charity. Love will lead you to the truth.


Zech 2:10 Up, up! Flee from the land of the north, says the LORD; for I scatter you to the four winds of heaven, says the LORD.

11:17 Woe to my foolish shepherd who forsakes the flock! May the sword fall upon his arm and upon his right eye; Let his arm wither away entirely, and his right eye be blind forever!

[Laudate_Dominum]

Yeah, all that caps lock ABOMINATION and WHORE stuff is pretty messed up. At the very least it is counter-productive and rude. I'm up for a cool discussion, but not all that yelling and name calling stuff. It's childish.

P.S. Are you by chance a devotee of Ruckman? Would you say that the King James version of the Bible is superior to the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts? Just curious.

[Laudate_Dominum]

As a side note, Karl Keating's second public debate in history (perhaps the one this fellow is alluding to) was in 1987 again fundamentalist Peter Ruckman. My mom used to joke about this debate because there was a fellow in the front row who would hold up a sign that read "Amen Brother" whenever Ruckman was talking, and a sign that said "Repent Sinner" whenever Keating had the floor.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Jan 15 2006, 01:17 PM']I suppose that this means I am going to have to check out the book from the library and quote at least one fallacy in the book. In the mean time...
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I hope they have it (your library), for some reason I kind of doubt it. I was thinking of buying it off amazon and they don't have a lot of options. The single volume version and the much smaller abridged version seems more available. I even found the abridged version online.

I imagine most libraries that would have this obscure, self-published bit of anti-catholic nonsense would be the kind of establishment that would have a Jack Chick collection among their periodicals.

[2tim215]

The 1st and foremost reason why I am NOT a Roman Catholic is because of your Church's "pastor". This, of course, would be obvious to anyonewho has read the Bible clear through, at least once. ("The" Holy Bible KJBav 1611) A Christian "pastor" should have a real family (I Tim. 3:2), he should have a "flock" of Saved people (sheep, Not DOGS), and he should feed them the word of God (Jn. 21:16; Acts 20:28,32). His title is never "father" (Mt. 23:9) or "Holy Father" (Jn. 17:11), but simply "bishop" (I Tim. 3:1) or "brother". Such Pagan epithets as "pope" (or "bishop of bishops" or "archbishop")are OUT. The word "pope" is especially obnoxious, coming from "paps" (for papa") and meaning a "nursing father" (Num. 11:12). That is exactly the title the Lord Jesus Christ Banned in Matthew 23:9. It is Not to be used in addressing ANY religious leader, so Rome does just that. A Catholic "pope" is never a pastor in any sense of the word. He feeds the word of God to no one, he has no family, he is not "the husband of one wife," he bears a title FORBIDDEN by Jesus Christ, and , if that were not enough, he denies the teachings of the Apostle Peter (Acts 15:11: I Pet. 2:5) after claiming apostolic succession from him as "Prince of the Apostles." Peter would not let a man bow down to him (Acts 10:25-26). 2tim215

[Laudate_Dominum]

Oh, and I suppose the 178 page abridged version represents the cream of the crop. This alone would be enough to show any educated Catholic that the approach of this book is to take obscure quotes (quite often from sources that lack any authority), completely out of context, and imply a some derogatory meaning that is foreign to the actual context.

Some funny examples (my comments will be in [i]italics[/i]):

[b]Ladies Not Allowed in Bar in Headquarters of Knights of Columbus![/b]
This I observed in their headquarters in St. Louis. I sup­pose a woman could get in, but a lady would not want to be there!
[i]hehe, what utter depravity![/i]

[b]Get Drunk—Stay Drunk—Cannot Go to Hell![/b]
“A child that has not yet attained the full use of reason, a person half asleep, or half drunk, or half-witted, cannot know and appreciate sufficiently the malice of mortal sin, and so cannot commit it” (Manual of Moral Theology, I, 137).
[i]Ok, a random quote taken from a random moral theology book proves that Catholicism teaches that getting drunk is a way to avoid hell? Obviously in context the only point being made is that culpability is lessened by circumstances in which the faculty of reason is inhibited.[/i]

[b]Profanity Approved[/b]
“There may be unconscious, involuntary lapses under the constant pressure of a strong inclination, as in the vice of cursing, and it remains innocent as long as it is not willfully yielded to and indulged” (Explanation of Catholic Morals, 27).
[i]Again, we have a quote from some random moral theology text which is obviously not "approving" profanity. Such a suggestion is infact absurd.[/i]

[i]Some of my favourite are those in the section on the saints:[/i]

[b]“St.” Peter of Alcantara Never Looked at Women[/b]
From the time that he put on the religious habit to his death, he never looked any woman in the face.
[i]Oh the scandal!! I can think of a few women saints who took upon themselves the penance of never looking upon men. I guess this fact means that I should abandone the faith. That's dumb.[/i]

[b]“St.” Collete—Devils Buzzed Around Her!
“St.” Pachomius—Only Slept One Hour Sitting Up!
Relics of “St.” Bonaventure Stop Plague!
Ignorant and Fanatical Flagellants—Jesuit Inspired Today!
Birds and Bees Listen to “St.” Francis Assisi Preach![/b]
[i]Oh the humanity!![/i]

[b]Extreme Unction Works Miracles!!![/b]
“God frequently works miracles through the ordinary ad­ministration of the Sacrament of Extreme Unction”
[i]I'm scandalized![/i]

[b]Crucifix Bowed Its Head[/b]
He offered up his prayers before a great crucifix. Whilst he continued . . the crucifix miraculously bowed its head to him, as it were to give him a token how acceptable the sacrifice of his resentment” (Lives of the Saints, Butler, VII, 91, 92).
[i]I'm losing my faith.. j/k[/i]

Alright, I'm done picking on the book. There are many things in the book that are not so obviously silly, and I don't doubt that there are some issues brought up in the book that are in fact difficult, but in general the book is a hoot. And I can't imagine an educated Catholic having their faith shaken by this book.

[Guest JeffCR07]

2tim215, I would be happy to discuss with you any one of the different arguments you bring up, if you are willing to stick to the subject with me. Would you like to discuss the Pope or the question of calling no man "Father"?

[2tim215]

You hit the nail on the head! But, you have it wrong, catholics are not educated in truth, just what you are ALLOWED to read, dictated from your papa. Can you send me a list of books ya'll are not allowed to read? You know like Foxes Book of Martyrs, etc. You know Martin Luther was a MAN that tried to get the church staightened out, a long with Huss, Savonarola, and many, many others that were butchard by your CHURCH and still it goes on today Spain, Ulstra, etc. Why the Sword when we have the book? (Psa.138:2) God came to earth 1st as a Lamb, He is coming back as a LION! Don"t ya'll owe it to your selves to seek the truth, God will give you the truth if You truely seek it, if not He will give you the lie you seek! The Capitals are in the Holy Bible! (MYSTERY). 1-800-321-4587 to get the book. (Mars Hill Bookstore). If you are interested in truth seek out these books: Paul Blanshard; American Freedom and Catholic Power, 1958. William Forbush, ed.; Foxes Book of Martyrs, 1926. Alexander Hislop; The Two Babylons, 1916. Avro Manhattan; Religious Terror in Ireland, 1971. The Vatican Billions,1983. The Vatican Imperialism in the Twentiwth Century, 1965. The Vatican Moscow Washington Alliance, 1972. Samuel Morland, The Churches of the Valley of the Piedmont, 1975. Paul Peterson, The Rise of the Roman Catholic Church, 1960. R.W. Thompson, Footprints of the Jeuits, 1894. and many more, Baron Porcelli, The Antichrist, 1920. James Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 1917. Joseph McCabe, The Black International Series, 1942-1944. Joseph Zacchello, Secerts of Romanism,1948. August Hasler, How the Pope Became Infallible, 1981. Guenter Levy, The Catholic Church andNazi Germany, 1964. I PRAY for ya'll, as Iam Commanded to tell the TRUTH of God to ALL. I Shant want Blood of my Hands at The Judgment Seat of Christ! I Tim. 1:4; 4:7; 6:3-10,20-21; 1:9-11; II Tim. 2:9,15,16,25,26; 3:5,16; 4:1-6; 3:8-11. With Charity, 2itm215 P.S. that was Zech 10:2, My mistake

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='2tim215' date='Jan 15 2006, 09:38 PM']You hit the nail on the head! But, you have it wrong, catholics are not educated in truth, just what you are ALLOWED to read, dictated from your papa. Can you send me a list of books ya'll are not allowed to read? You know like Foxes Book of Martyrs, etc. You know Martin Luther was a MAN that tried to get the church staightened out, a long with Huss, Savonarola, and many, many others that were butchard by your CHURCH and still it goes on today Spain, Ulstra, etc. Why the Sword when we have the book? (Psa.138:2) God came to earth 1st as a Lamb, He is coming back as a LION! Don"t ya'll owe it to your selves to seek the truth, God will give you the truth if You truely seek it, if not He will give you the lie you seek!  The Capitals are in the Holy Bible! (MYSTERY). 1-800-321-4587 to get the book. (Mars Hill Bookstore). If you are interested in truth seek out these books: Paul Blanshard; American Freedom and Catholic Power, 1958. William Forbush, ed.; Foxes Book of Martyrs, 1926.  Alexander Hislop; The Two Babylons, 1916. Avro Manhattan; Religious Terror in Ireland, 1971. The Vatican Billions,1983. The Vatican Imperialism in the Twentiwth Century, 1965. The Vatican Moscow Washington Alliance, 1972. Samuel Morland, The Churches of the Valley of the Piedmont, 1975. Paul Peterson, The Rise of the Roman Catholic Church, 1960. R.W. Thompson, Footprints of the Jeuits, 1894. and many more, Baron Porcelli, The Antichrist, 1920. James Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 1917. Joseph McCabe, The Black International Series, 1942-1944. Joseph Zacchello, Secerts of Romanism,1948. August Hasler, How the Pope Became Infallible, 1981. Guenter Levy, The Catholic Church andNazi Germany, 1964. I PRAY for ya'll, as Iam Commanded to tell the TRUTH of God to ALL. I Shant want Blood of my Hands at The Judgment Seat of Christ! I Tim. 1:4; 4:7; 6:3-10,20-21; 1:9-11; II Tim. 2:9,15,16,25,26; 3:5,16; 4:1-6; 3:8-11. With Charity, 2itm215  P.S. that was Zech 10:2, My mistake
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If this was actually funny. It wouldn't be so sad...

[2tim215]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 15 2006, 04:34 PM']2tim215, I would be happy to discuss with you any one of the different arguments you bring up, if you are willing to stick to the subject with me. Would you like to discuss the Pope or the question of calling no man "Father"?
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Sorry been reading so much of ya'lls questions and answers on the boards, I get so sad at all the misinformation you have been fed through the years that I didn't know where to begin! All I know is that it doen't coinside with Bible Doctrine for the New Testament Church, Sooo Sad! I sent one message that I would like an answer to The father deal? 2tim215, If you Can, answer that, I'll be satisfied and not bother you again, II Tim. 3:10-11