Ecumenicism

[p0lar_bear]

OK, I've decided that I will not have time to do this as well as I would like anytime soon, but I'll give you what I can...

I think Paphnutius provided an excellent beginning defintion of ecumenism:
[quote]Ecumenicism says that we have differences X, Y, and Z; similiarities A, B, and C so let us focus on and pray on A, B, and C and then discuss X, Y, and Z in a way that will minimize hostility towards one another. You are correct, the Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but that never means that we should approach others as though they are in total, obstinate error. Ecumenicism seeks to approach one another in a loving way. [/quote]

Basically, the goal of ecumenism is the prayer of Christ "that they all might be one." Yes, the Catholic Church is "One" and maintains that unity, but it cannot be denied that earnest and faithful Christians are separated from one another, both by differences in belief and by bitterness and misunderstanding. Bitterness, name-calling, accusations, and the like have inhibited Christians from trying to truly understand, and therefore mend, the rifts for far too long. In the last century, that started to change (though not without some serious issues along the way).

The most important part of ecumenism is dialogue, talking to the "other side" in an honest effort to understand what they believe and why. In some ways, we are not as far away from a church or community as we may think: some problems are really more because we use different language than because we believe different things. In other ways, we are farther apart than it would initially seem. It is important to identify what we can agree on and why we disagree in order to resolve the differences.



hmmm...not exactly happy with that, but it will suffice for a beginning...

[p0lar_bear]

EENS,

Sorry I abandoned this for so long. I fell ill and was a bit incoherent (which made work rather interesting....). Anyway...


Ecumenism is basically not starting a conversation with a non-Catholic with "Die, heretic scum!" We can't react to Protestants today the same way people did during the Reformation, because they are in a completely different place. We don't begin by assuming that they are non-Catholic as a result of obstinate denial, sinful pride, or deliberate unbelief. They are not rejecting something they know. We must assume that they are acting in good faith, that they are following Christ as best they know how. Are they in error, yes, but they are not necessarily culpable in that error. They are misinformed and do not know the true Church. Part of ecumenism is acknowledging non-Catholics as good people faithfully trying to follow Christ.

As far as prayer is concerned: Since we recognize that Protestants and the Orthodox are, in fact, Christians, it is only fitting that in our efforts to reconcile with them, we pray with them. Praying with and for non-Catholics invites God into the discussion in a very real way. We worship Christ together, acknowledging that despite our many differences, we are united in a way through our belief in Christ and His message. Praying and worshipping together can help keep the focus where it belongs, on God. While every meeting can be couched in prayer, ecumenical worship services should be rather rare.

While there are good reasons for attending non-Catholic services, it does not replace attending Mass and it should not be habitual (though there are reasons for regular attendance too). If I am having discussion with, say, a Lutheran, it may be appropriate for me to attend a Lutheran service so I know where they are coming from liturgically speaking, what they are used to, etc. It can also help me recognize that they are worshipping Christ in their services. On the other hand, attending a service with an anti-Catholic bent can also help me understand some of the misconceptions that people of that community may have. I definitely do not recommend regular attendance at non-Catholic services in the name of ecumenism, but experiencing it can be useful.


Break over...I'll continue later today.

[p0lar_bear]

OK, so if ecumenism is just dialogue and being friendly, why would Pius XI write an encyclical condemning it?

Well, really he didn't. At least, he didn't condemn ecumenism as it is understood today. He did write some very scathing things about what he called "pan-Christians" and some of the early ecumenical gatherings. However, like all documents of the Church, Pope Pius XI's [i]Mortalium Animos[/i] is couched in a historical context. In order to understand what the Holy Father wrote and why, you have to look at what he was writing about...what the ecumenical movement was at the time. The ecumenical movement had...a difficult childhood. There were many problems, some of which do still exist today.

So...a brief history of the ecumenical movement...

While there have been attempts at reunion first with the Orthodox then with the Protestants since the respective breaks, it wasn't until the late 1800's, early 1900's that the ecumenical movement really began to form. For whatever reasons, the almost continuous splintering of Christianity in the form of different Protestant groups went on without major comment for nearly 400 years. Then, in the late 19th century, Christians began to become increasingly more concerned about the scandal of this disunity.

The first ecumenical meeting among Protestants was probably the World Mission Conference in Edinburgh, Scotland in 1910. Missionaries throughout the world were running into trouble as they tried to convert people in the same areas. Non-Christians used the disunity of Christians to deny Christianity. Recognizing the obvious scandal of this, Protestants from many different denominations met to try to fix the problem and show a united front to combat the issues they were facing. This initial meeting is the root of the ecumenical movement today and was the root of many of the early problems. The organizers at Edinburgh were anxious to show a united Christianity, but specifically avoided questions of a united doctrine.

The initial result of the Edinburgh Conference was the formation of two groups: "Faith and Order" and "Life and Work"



More on them later....



ETA: If anyone has anything to add or any questions, please feel free...or else I'm going to feel like I'm talking to myself...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

so ecumenisicism started with protestants?

i can understand bieng nice and friendly, but i don't understand why the Pope really needs to get involved. I am still unsure what i believe on this Issue. Me and Jesus are still working on it.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

If we go to other relegions worship services, we are condoning something false are we not? we are presenitng ourselves at relegious service that is not our own and praying prays that are not are own to possibly the Same God, But this "God" we are praying to is misunderstood by the non-catholics. Plus if we pray togehter to God With ambigious prayers with non-catholics, then we are watering down our prayers and stripping them of there Catholicism not to offend Non-Catholics.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 16 2006, 08:18 PM']If we go to other relegions worship services, we are condoning something false are we not? [right][snapback]858289[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]Not necessarily. We go to abortion clinics to picket and protest do we not? Simply presence at a place does not mean compliance nor condoning the act. One must take the intention of the agent in mind.

[quote]Plus if we pray togehter to God With ambigious prayers with non-catholics, then we are watering down our prayers and stripping them of there Catholicism not to offend Non-Catholics.
[/quote]They do not have to be ambigous and they can be as heartfelt when you are not in that setting.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 16 2006, 09:18 PM']If we go to other relegions worship services, we are condoning something false are we not? we are presenitng ourselves at relegious service that is not our own and praying prays that are not are own to possibly the Same God, But this "God" we are praying to is misunderstood by the non-catholics. Plus if we pray togehter to God With ambigious prayers with non-catholics, then we are watering down our prayers and stripping them of there Catholicism not to offend Non-Catholics.
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[/quote]

Doesn't this go with people like SSPX as well?

It's one of the reasons it's so hard to answer the question about SSPX is that going isn't necessarily condoning.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

attending public worship of a false relegion, brings scandal and indifferentism. People will see a Catholic there and think it is all right to go and worship False gods. and others will see a Catholic and think that there is nothing different about the relegions, or that he doesn't have to convert to be saved, or we all believe in jesus so we are one faith.

it just doesn't make sense to me.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 16 2006, 10:34 PM']attending public worship of a false relegion, brings scandal and indifferentism. People will see a Catholic there and think it is all right to go and worship False gods. and others will see a Catholic and think that there is nothing different about the relegions, or that he doesn't have to convert to be saved, or we all believe in jesus so we are one faith.
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The God Protestants worship is no more false than the God the SSPX worships. qfnol31 is right, your arguments work just as well against attending SSPX liturgies.

No one is here is condoning indifferentism, but that doesn't mean we can't attend a non-Catholic service, provided that scandal is avoided. A siege mentality that perpetuates the disunity of Christians is more scandalous than a willingness to learn how other Christians understand God and themselves. It's not about religious indifference or "pan-Christianity", but about meeting people where they are and making an honest attempt to see their point of view. If you don't know what they believe and why they believe it, apologetics quickly devolves into bitter rhetoric. If attending a Protestant service is going to demonstrate a good-faith effort on your part, then it can be very beneficial to dialogue and conversion. No one is saying that everyone should just start attending whatever services they want to, but there are good reasons to attend non-Catholic worship services.

Also, while non-Catholics are indeed in error about many things, Catholics could stand to learn a few things from them too. I have never seen the fellowship that is common in many Evangelical communities in a Catholic parish. A large percentage of people who join the Church leave within the first couple of years because they feel alone, they miss the fellowship they had. Fellowship shouldn't be a Protestant idea; it should be a Catholic one. We could stand to take a few notes from the Evangelicals on that. The Bible is a Catholic book, but Protestants demonstrate a much greater love and knowledge of it. We could definitely learn from that. Small group Bible studies started in Protestant circles, but that doesn't mean Catholics shouldn't follow suit. It was Protestants, not Catholics, that taught me that my faith should infuse my whole life. Should it have been, no, but the fact is, the Catholic Church has not been doing a great job at evangelization and education. "Test everything, hold fast to what is good."


I'll finish my bit on the history of ecumenism and Pius XI's encyclical later.


[quote]it just doesn't make sense to me.[/quote]
I understand that, but be aware that just because it does not make sense to you doesn't mean it isn't good or true. Advanced calculus doesn't make sense to me, but I blame that on me, not on the calculus. Be open to the possibility that the lack is in your understanding, not in the subject.




[i]edited: because proper spelling is my friend[/i]

[blovedwolfofgod]

I dont wish to be off topic, but in a sense, we need the protestant churches. Humans improve with competition. We compete with the protestants. We better each other, while simultaneously destroying one another. I never truly looked at theology and dug for the truth until my protestant brethren challenged me. and they benefit from my challenges.

Was reading a book by a former catholic priest, Francis MacNutt, who is still catholic, i believe... but anyway, he was talking about healing prayer, prayer for the physical and emotional and spiritual person. we pray with each other, and thereby bring people to Christ's healing. We have differences, but working together to bring the kingdom... or at least an increase in virtue, i think thats a big part of ecumenism.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' date='Jan 17 2006, 10:44 AM']I dont wish to be off topic, but in a sense, we need the protestant churches. Humans improve with competition. We compete with the protestants. We better each other, while simultaneously destroying one another. I never truly looked at theology and dug for the truth until my protestant brethren challenged me. and they benefit from my challenges.
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I don't want to discount your experience, in fact I had a similar one. I would know very little about my faith today if I were not so severely challenged by non-Catholics when I was young. However, Christ's prayer is that we might all be one, and that should be our prayer too. The disunity of Christians, indeed of the whole human race, is a result of the Fall, not something to be sought or exalted. While there have been benefits from the disunity, it is more a case of God writing straight with crooked lines than evidence that the situation is good in itself.