Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I am just curious EENS, is this in context to what you have said before about the Church not allowing Catholics to actively participate in public worship with non-Catholics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 08:06 AM']hi, a recent thread was on ecumenicism. I would like to discuss ecumenicism in a civilized way comparing the ecumenicism of today to the ecumenicism of yesteryear in order to find the truth. this not a debate more of a discussion. ok [right][snapback]852658[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I really don't think the question makes sense honestly. The truth about ecumenism? Ecumenism is a dialogue between Christian communities regarding the differences between them. It is also some sharing of what we hold in common. There has never been any infallible statements regarding ecumenism to my knowledge and so the "truth" about ecumenism is kind of a nonsensical question. Conversations between Catholics and non-catholics can and do go on. Catholics can pray with non-catholics. There are of course limits to this. We cannot pray prayers that deny the Catholic faith for instance. Can we hold services with Protestants? At some level I think that is possible but with much caution. They can come to our Masses but not partake of the Eucharist. There are rare exceptions to this. A priest in Germany was stripped of his duties for allowing protestants to participate in the Eucharist. But for instnace in the case of the coal minners last week I think a Catholic could have participated in a prayer service for them. In the past it has been forbidden to attend a protestant service. Today there is more of an openness to this. One might call this a change but I would consider it more a matter of discipline. One should most certainly be cautious in this area. But that the Church forbid it in the past and allows it today does not mean there is a new "truth" about ecumenism. If the issue is hearing bad theology then we should not allow protestants to speak on Catholic message boards and participation in protestant message boards should be forbidden. It is not to my knowledge. There has to be religous dialogue between Catholics and all people. This is how the truth gets spread. One must always uphold the truth but one may also want to get an understanding of another groups beliefs and cultures primarily for the purpose of bringing them more fully in to the truth. That is the true purpose of ecumenism. There are truths that everyone holds because God's laws are implanted on all men's hearts and with Protestants, no group has completely rejected the traditions and so has a certain level of truth. Ecumenism can never end as long as there is division in Christianity. That is my point of view. Edited January 11, 2006 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 what is the big problem with praying with protestants?? Example, if a group of protestants are praying to the exact same God the Father Son and Holy Spirit, yet I should say excuse me my Church says I can't pray to God with you, because even though we're praying, worshiping, the exact same (not an idea of the same, but the exact same, Jesus Christ) since you don't agree with everything the Church teaches. I'm not saying they should recieve communion or any of the sacraments, but I live in an area where religion, mostly protestant, is an everyday fact of life. Can I not pray with my protestant friends when we bless our food? When they give thanks for everything they have that day? Prayer before our sporting events where we play alongside each other? Bible studies in our dorms, that are protestant led? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:51 AM']what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church? [right][snapback]852919[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Did you mean the church as in bringing them to Mass, or the Church as in converting? Well for one if we pray with our seperated brethren we invoke Christ to work through us. Where two or three are gathered in His name He is there. Praying with them can expose them to the Truth and begin the conversion process somewhere inside of them. Remember that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed...Praying is an excellent way of sowing seeds that may bear fruit for later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:59 AM']what is the big problem with praying with protestants?? [/quote] I do not think that the Church has had a problem with private prayer as long as there was nothing offensive to the Church. The problem was with public worship or liturgies and the idea behind that was being exposed to false teachings. It was viewed as an unneccesary occasion of sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 01:51 PM']what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church? [right][snapback]852919[/snapback][/right] [/quote] OK, I so shouldn't be here right now, but I wanted to offer a quick response...The ecumenical movement isn't about praying with non-Catholics. If that is all that is happening, then it is not true ecumenism and there are serious problems. Praying with non-Catholics can be an important element in a broader ecumenical effort, but it is not the central feature of ecumenism. You need to be able to look beyond a single visible manifestation of the efforts if you are going to understand ecumenism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 06:13 PM']....... [right][snapback]852946[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 P0lar bear said: [quote] You need to be able to look beyond a single visible manifestation of the efforts if you are going to understand ecumenism.[/quote] like what? that is what the ..... means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:00 AM']I do not think that the Church has had a problem with private prayer as long as there was nothing offensive to the Church. The problem was with public worship or liturgies and the idea behind that was being exposed to false teachings. It was viewed as an unneccesary occasion of sin. [right][snapback]852928[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with you about liturgies.... but could you somewhat define 'public worship'? Going to a Christian concert? Prayer before a football game? Or the other extreme, a non-denominational service (theres a large group, maybe 10,000 or so that get together on tuesday nights at our basketball arena for a praise and worship style music, and a leader that reads some scripture and talks)? I'm personally not very comfortable with the last one... Half the problem is what is considered a protestant liturgy these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 11:51 AM']what does praying with protestants have to do with brining them into the church? [right][snapback]852919[/snapback][/right] [/quote] A part of evangelization is recognizing what is true in others rather than picking at where they are in error or calling them damnable sinners going to hell until they submit to our cursings. Paul used this method of helping others to understand Catholicism in the Aeropogus in Acts with pagans. Most certainly we should employ it with Protestants who are Christian. Part of what we hold in common is prayer to the trinitarian God. In ecumenical efforts most certainly we should pray together for unity. God hears their prayers and he hears ours. Why shouldn't we be united in prayer at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:16 PM']P0lar bear said: like what? that is what the ..... means [right][snapback]852950[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If I might be so bold as to speak for another, I believe that polarbear was meaning that true ecumenism is not simply coming together for prayer, but rather goes into discussions and dialogues. This is not to downplay the importance of prayer, but prayer is not exhaustive of ecumenism. Ecumenism involves open, honest, and mutually resepctful dialogue. It addresses the real issues of difference and similiarities. [quote]but could you somewhat define 'public worship'[/quote]I agree that it is difficult to define Protestant liturgy and worship because it is so radically different than ours. I do not think that it would be helpful to do a case by case review but I would understand public worship as like a Sunday service, or whichever day they meet. Concerts and what not are not inherently bad (one must still look out for lyrics) but if talks or sermons are involved I would be cautious. Personally I do not go to non-Catholic concerts or services. I may go to share groups and what not though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 shouldn't we not go to their worship/ecumenical stuff, shouldn't they come to ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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