Era Might Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Myles' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:09 PM']Which is precisely my point. The welfare state is not designed for this sort of thing. Its a safety net which becomes a trap because too many people are in adverse circumstances. Society itself needs an attitude adjustment so that children like myself will not be conceived outside of wedlock. The very attitudes which pervade our society must be radically altered if Western civilisation wishes to survive it must begin to support the institution of the family and not just with money but by making people value the family in essence. By creating a world where monogamous lasting marriages are a social norm and are expected and aimed at. The hedonistic existentialism that currently has the West by a vicegrip will prove to be its undoing. By creating a world where individual pleasure is the ultimate good we are unravelling the very bonds which gave that world its genesis. [right][snapback]853038[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Point well taken, but I don't think this is something that the State can remedy. It is our job as Christians to convert hearts. But we live in an imperfect world. We do not live in a Christian world, unfortunately, but we still have a duty to children and families, as I said, even if they are imperfect, and not a perfect model of what a Christian family "should" be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I think if a lot of people weren't required to pay taxes they would not think twice about the poor. I think it is good to have that system in place. I dont think that going overseas does anything for us. We have so many people on our own streets that can't get help. We have neighborhoods just as bad as some overseas but people choose not to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:08 PM']Money manager not exactly. What I am saying is that welfare money shouldn't be squandered. I'm also saying that there's too many people out there who are on welfare simply because they don't want to work. Social worker: I do believe everyone who on welfare should report to a social worker, even if it is just once a month or every two months. Those on welfare should be held accountable for the money which they receive. If you ever look on your paycheck you would notice that an incredible amount of taxes is taken out of your paycheck. Now look at SS. More SS comes out than most of the other taxes and the reason why is because of all those on welfare. [right][snapback]853034[/snapback][/right] [/quote] OK, so if you think they should be held accountable, how exactly would that work? Out of my check (looking at a stub right now) I have federal withholding, OASDI (which I believe is the SS -- Social Security -- you were referring to), Medicare, state withholding, county withholding, and my assorted insurance withholdings. The biggest chunk is federal w/h, followed by OASDI, then state, Medicare, and county taxes. Medicare and OASDI (Social Security) are in reality federal insurance programs. TANF monies don't come out of that -- they come out of the federal withholding. If you are under the retirement age (67, I think, but don't hold me to it) and getting Social Security benefits, you have qualified for it because you are receiving benefits as a survivor or because you have been found to be disabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 a gentle reminder to practice charity and prudence, folks. if need be, go pray the [url="http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/humility.htm"]Litany of Humility.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:11 PM']That's not a national concern, though. It is and must remain a local concern (especially in the states). It's the reason we have them. [right][snapback]853044[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Why isn't it a national concern? Should poor people in Mississippi not get help because their state happens to be poorer than New York? Besides, each state has some say in how TANF money is distributed within its boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:16 PM']I think if a lot of people weren't required to pay taxes they would not think twice about the poor. I think it is good to have that system in place. I dont think that going overseas does anything for us. We have so many people on our own streets that can't get help. We have neighborhoods just as bad as some overseas but people choose not to see that. [right][snapback]853050[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I was just using the fact that we do it overseas as an example to show we do it at home. It's true most people ignore the streets, but I'm not so sure that the federal government can help with this fact much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 11 2006, 07:12 PM']Point well taken, but I don't think this is something that the State can remedy. It is our job as Christians to convert hearts. But we live in an imperfect world. We do not live in a Christian world, unfortunately, but we still have a duty to children and families, as I said, even if they are imperfect, and not a perfect model of what a Christian family "should" be. [right][snapback]853045[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes, we have a duty to children and familes and part of that duty is to create a better world. However, this is not simply a Christian issue. Caesar Augustus wrote about how it was neccessary for the Romans to have strong productive families and foster the values that made their people great if they wanted the Pax Romana to be perpetuated beyond him. My point of view is that unless the governments of the West begin a concerted effort to change the way the people they govern think our civilisation will collapse. A society cannot be built upon pure untamed individualism, upon rights without responsibilities. The Western world is decaying rapidly and the peoples minds need changing. We are in much the same position as the Western Roman Empire of the 5th century and the Huns are coming...however, we have no Stillcho and no Aetius and worse no Caesar to stand for us and guide the people. These problems will not be solved by going back and forth between economic and public policy shifts. You cannot change things that way only create the conditions for change. Western governments must do much more if they wish to save our civilisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:20 PM']I was just using the fact that we do it overseas as an example to show we do it at home. It's true most people ignore the streets, but I'm not so sure that the federal government can help with this fact much. [right][snapback]853058[/snapback][/right] [/quote] true. sad... but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:10 PM']If my taxes were given directly to welfare, social security, etc. then I wouldn't be so worried about it. However, they are not. There are many poor uses that receive these taxes. Plus, you have to pay all the middle people. If I wasn't paying taxes, I could more easily and directly help someone even better than anyone with my taxes can. Secondly, taxes imply no one wants to help the poor and that its the government's job to do so. I don't think that's the case at all, especially after Rerum Novarum. Because of the modern tax situation and welfare most people get the idea they don't have to help the poor, and that's very much wrong. I think that people do well to adopt others overseas. That is a very good thing. I also think this direct system of giving the money (its better with goods, but money works better overseas) to the people instead of through an institution ends up with more people being helped. [right][snapback]853042[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh, come now. You're saying that you're in a better position to make a determination about whether or not someone needs help than people with social services training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:20 PM']Why isn't it a national concern? Should poor people in Mississippi not get help because their state happens to be poorer than New York? Besides, each state has some say in how TANF money is distributed within its boundaries. [right][snapback]853056[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This sounds a lot like a Robin-Hood school-funding plan we had in place here. It in a nutshell redistributed all money from the richer districts and moved it to the poorer. Also, as regards your specific example, I believe the cost of living is at least three or four times higher in New York than it is in Mississippi. I used to live in Georgia, where honestly there isn't much. But there it was easier to help people because the cost of living is much lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:24 PM']Oh, come now. You're saying that you're in a better position to make a determination about whether or not someone needs help than people with social services training? [right][snapback]853065[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Nope, I haven't said that. I just said it's easier one-on-one than going through a middle person. Think of arguing with Mrs. Bro. Adam or anyone else in this thread through me. That would be painful (though maybe funny!) J/K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote]People who work full-time at miminum wage can't even get on welfare because they are just above the 'poverty line'. Should these people not receieve federal aid if they can't make their ends meet? Ever wonder why those people can't get aid. It's beacuse of those who abuse the welfare system, and there are way too many of them. Ever wonder why really sick people cant' get medicaid? It's because of those who abuse the welfare system. I'm convinced there's a better way to help those who really need the help.[/quote] OK, so you want to increase the poverty level? And it doesn't follow that someone who works full-time makes better decisions about how they spend their money. Perhaps they, too, are spending too much on the lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I place no faith in the government. The government isn't going to stop abortion. The government isn't going to promote families. The government isn't going to help the poor. The only thing politicians care about is votes, and they will walk the line to get as many as they can. The conversion of hearts is the only hope for the future. We have to work with the government, as best we can, to help those who need help. But not for one moment will I ever look to the government to change the world. [quote name='Myles' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:22 PM']Yes, we have a duty to children and familes and part of that duty is to create a better world. However, this is not simply a Christian issue. Caesar Augustus wrote about how it was neccessary for the Romans to have strong productive families and foster the values that made their people great if they wanted the Pax Romana to be perpetuated beyond him. My point of view is that unless the governments of the West begin a concerted effort to change the way the people they govern think our civilisation will collapse. A society cannot be built upon pure untamed individualism, upon rights without responsibilities. The Western world is decaying rapidly and the peoples minds need changing. We are in much the same position as the Western Roman Empire of the 5th century and the Huns are coming...however, we have no Stillcho and no Aetius and worse no Caesar to stand for us and guide the people. These problems will not be solved by going back and forth between economic and public policy shifts. You cannot change things that way only create the conditions for change. Western governments must do much more if they wish to save our civilisation. [right][snapback]853060[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:26 PM']I place no faith in the government. The government isn't going to stop abortion. The government isn't going to promote families. The government isn't going to help the poor. The only thing politicians care about is votes, and they will walk the line to get as many as they can. The conversion of hearts is the only hope for the future. We have to work with the government, as best we can, to help those who need help. But not for one moment will I ever look to the government to change the world. [right][snapback]853069[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And here, I think, is a good reason for us Catholics to take these matters into our own hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I have a quick question for you qfnol, do you believe that it is in the state's duty to assist the poor of its own domain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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