Myles Domini Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 The problems with our society go far deeper than the simple Left Wing/Right Wing divide and personally I dont believe in the politics of the squabbling factions allied to either side to solve them. As a Briton I will speak proudly about the Welfare State which this country maintains and simultaneously condemn those who abuse that system. I happen to be the child of a hard working single parent and I am glad the government makes provisions for people like us. However, I feel my Mum is more than justified in getting angry--and she does get angry--with those who siphon of the State because they cannot be bothered to better themselves. People can pretend that it doesn't happen and that everyone on welfare really needs it but being an inner city Londoner myself I'll tell you first hand thats a [b]lie![/b] There are scores of people out there who have no ambition whatsoever and who will continue to feed off of the state until the day they die. Worse still there are con artists and the like who present themselves as needy whilst in reality being financially secure and the reason for this is clear: We've created a society of individualistic overconsumption. Every generation more and more people are born into a society where want is emphasised as the ultimate good and things are sold on demand. This way of living has drained the Occident of its fibre. We've become so used to getting what we want that fewer people are willing to work and struggle for things. Everyone is looking for the fastest way to get what they want and its destroying our civilisation. The value of education is falling because people no longer care for education but for the ends of education: money and if money is attainable by means other than education then they'll neglect to learn and go for the quick fix. The problems Britain is having with its education system currently cannot be fixed by Tony Blair making changes to the system. The system is not at fault, the people within it are. The children are not being nurtured in a society which values the intellectual virtues how can anyone expect them to excel consequently? The value of the NHS and free healthcare in this country is so drastically underrated its a joke. People have become so used to the State taking care of them that they feel the need to complain at the instant the 'service' isnt to their liking. Heaven forbid they go private instead. No, they moan about their tax money rather than realising that the vast majority of people in the world do not have access to free healthcare on demand. Once again an example of the welfare state becoming the unappreciated nanny state. All we hear about these days are peoples rights? What about their RESPONSIBILITIES. Personally I'm sick of popularist politics and people pandering to the whims of the masses who have grown complacent in their condition. What is required now is not the talk and bickering of party politics but a strong leader who will rise up and guide the people in the correct manner of living. Who can lead by example and stand at the front, who will have the authoratitive voice to instruct and adjust the attitudes of a decadent civilisation so as to save that civilisation. What the world needs now is not a republican or a democrat, a conversative or a socialist. But a Caesar! [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/nl/2/29/Julius_Caesar.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:00 PM']I think this implies that the system uses all the money for good (it does not) and that no individuals are there to help (which I sure hope they are!). [right][snapback]853018[/snapback][/right] [/quote] please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:56 PM']I would apply that to this conversation as " Boy I sure don't want to take my tax dollars out of the welfare system" [right][snapback]853011[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i would. excuse me for wanting to choose where and how MY money goes to help those in need [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:56 PM']But should we base that definition on the government or the people themselves? [right][snapback]853008[/snapback][/right] [/quote] my thoughts exactly, qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) My mother, a single mother, was on welfare when we were young. When we were 7 or 8 or so, she went to work full time as a custodian. Just to say not everyone on welfare is a lazy bum. If she went to work, she would have been accused of child negligence, and we would have been put in a foster home. If she didn't, she's accused of being a lazy bum. It's a lose-lose situation either way. If we're serious about the preeminence of the family, then we need to put our social money where our mouth is and help those who, for whatever reason, can't work, or can't fully support their family. Abuses of the system are real, but we can't just abandon the system altogether. Edited January 11, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:56 PM']But should we base that definition on the government or the people themselves? [right][snapback]853008[/snapback][/right] [/quote] In this case, what's the real difference? We as a society came together and elected officials who then came up with a plan for us to care for the poor. It sets a standard nationally for providing care, while establishing local offices through which eligibility determinations are made and help is dispensed. If it were all up to individual locales to provide care, you would end up with serious inequities in the system. Some people would receive proportionately more help than others simply because of where they lived. This spreads the burden for care equally among all taxpayers out of recognition of the fact that it's a burden we should commonly bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I would quote Myles but I do not like it when people simply quote a long post, but I must says props. That was well put. I believe that it is difficult to assist those in true need while attempting to protect the system from being abused. I, however, recongize that I am sometimes a bleeding heart and perhaps put too much faith in people. That is why I will never create social reforms or anything of that sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:03 PM']My mother, a single mother, was on welfare when we were young. When we were 7 or 8 or so, she went to work full time as a custodian. Just to say not everyone on welfare is a lazy bum. If she went to work, she would have been accused of child negligence, and we would have been put in a foster home. If she didn't, she's accused of being a lazy bum. It's a lose-lose situation either way. If we're serious about the preeminence of the family, then we need to put our social money where our mouth is and help those who, for whatever reason, can't work, or can't fully support their family. Abuses of the system are real, but we can't just abandon the system altogether. [right][snapback]853024[/snapback][/right] [/quote] there is help out there for those who will look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:52 PM']OK, miss "don't put words in my mouth" ... [/quote] Reply: [quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:42 PM']So you not only want to have control over whether or not they get the money but how they spend it after they get it. Is that what you're saying? [right][snapback]852985[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not putting words into your mouth. Simply putting a visual to my point. [quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:52 PM']So what kinds of controls would you put in place to ensure people don't spend their money on non-essentials? Keep in mind that food stamps and TANF are not the same thing. There ARE strictures on what food stamps can be spent on. Are you advocating that every person on welfare have a case manager that would dictate how each client could spend money? (if so, I want one of those too. A personal money manager would be very useful to me) [right][snapback]852999[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Money manager not exactly. What I am saying is that welfare money shouldn't be squandered. I'm also saying that there's too many people out there who are on welfare simply because they don't want to work. Social worker: I do believe everyone who on welfare should report to a social worker, even if it is just once a month or every two months. Those on welfare should be held accountable for the money which they receive. If you ever look on your paycheck you would notice that an incredible amount of taxes is taken out of your paycheck. Now look at SS. More SS comes out than most of the other taxes and the reason why is because of all those on welfare. People who work full-time at miminum wage can't even get on welfare because they are just above the 'poverty line'. Should these people not receieve federal aid if they can't make their ends meet? Ever wonder why those people can't get aid. It's beacuse of those who abuse the welfare system, and there are way too many of them. Ever wonder why really sick people cant' get medicaid? It's because of those who abuse the welfare system. I'm convinced there's a better way to help those who really need the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:07 PM']there is help out there for those who will look. [right][snapback]853032[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Of course there is. My mother was the beneficiary of such help, thanks be to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:57 PM']i would first like to acknowledge the tremendous affection and respect i have for both of you... but... try not to get too personal. please? it makes me sad. question: sojourner, would you admit that there are some on welfare who do not 'deserve' to be on welfare? mrsbroadam, do you think it is practical to assign someone to each person on welfare? do you not think that in the end, careful monitoring would be more costly than leaving the system as is? i am not taking sides, just asking questions. carry on. [right][snapback]853012[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you for the reminder, hughey. Hughey, I've read enough criminal cases to know that there are people who abuse the system. There are laws to protect against this. While I'm sure that there are people that get away with it, I don't think that the vast majority of people on welfare don't need the help. And I believe we have adequate checks in place to catch the most serious abusers. At some point there must be a cost-benefit analysis. Yes, the system could be better ... but at what cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 11 2006, 07:03 PM']My mother, a single mother, was on welfare when we were young. When we were 7 or 8 or so, she went to work full time as a custodian. Just to say not everyone on welfare is a lazy bum. If she went to work, she would have been accused of child negligence, and we would have been put in a foster home. If she didn't, she's accused of being a lazy bum. It's a lose-lose situation either way. [right][snapback]853024[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Which is precisely my point. The welfare state is not designed for this sort of thing. Its a safety net which becomes a trap because too many people are in adverse circumstances. Society itself needs an attitude adjustment so that children like myself will not be conceived outside of wedlock. The very attitudes which pervade our society must be radically altered if Western civilisation wishes to survive it must begin to support the institution of the family and not just with money but by making people value the family in essence. By creating a world where monogamous lasting marriages are a social norm and are expected and aimed at. The hedonistic existentialism that currently has the West by a vicegrip will prove to be its undoing. By creating a world where individual pleasure is the ultimate good we are unravelling the very bonds which gave that world its genesis. Edited January 11, 2006 by Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I know welfare doesn't have the same cache as just telling those dirty whores to deal with their sins themselves, but this is not about our self righteousness. It is about doing what's best for children, and families, imperfect though may they be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:01 PM']please explain. [right][snapback]853022[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If my taxes were given directly to welfare, social security, etc. then I wouldn't be so worried about it. However, they are not. There are many poor uses that receive these taxes. Plus, you have to pay all the middle people. If I wasn't paying taxes, I could more easily and directly help someone even better than anyone with my taxes can. Secondly, taxes imply no one wants to help the poor and that its the government's job to do so. I don't think that's the case at all, especially after Rerum Novarum. Because of the modern tax situation and welfare most people get the idea they don't have to help the poor, and that's very much wrong. I think that people do well to adopt others overseas. That is a very good thing. I also think this direct system of giving the money (its better with goods, but money works better overseas) to the people instead of through an institution ends up with more people being helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 11 2006, 07:09 PM']I know welfare doesn't have the same cache as just telling those dirty whores to deal with their sins themselves, but this is not about our self righteousness. It is about doing what's best for children, and families, imperfect though may they be. [right][snapback]853040[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Come again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 11 2006, 02:04 PM']In this case, what's the real difference? We as a society came together and elected officials who then came up with a plan for us to care for the poor. It sets a standard nationally for providing care, while establishing local offices through which eligibility determinations are made and help is dispensed. If it were all up to individual locales to provide care, you would end up with serious inequities in the system. Some people would receive proportionately more help than others simply because of where they lived. This spreads the burden for care equally among all taxpayers out of recognition of the fact that it's a burden we should commonly bear. [right][snapback]853025[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That's not a national concern, though. It is and must remain a local concern (especially in the states). It's the reason we have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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