Can a faithful Catholic affirm this?

[Sojourner]

This is related to the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=45727"]thread I started yesterday[/url] about the Wheaton College professor who was fired after becoming Catholic. Here's a quote from the original Wall Street Journal article:

[quote]Wheaton's 12-point statement doesn't explicitly exclude Catholics. But its emphasis on Scripture as the "supreme and final authority" and its aligning of Wheaton with "evangelical Christianity" were unmistakably Protestant, Mr. Litfin wrote to Mr. Hochschild in late 2003. Because Catholics regard the Bible and the pope as equally authoritative, a Catholic "cannot faithfully affirm" the Wheaton statement, he continued.

Mr. Hochschild disagreed. The Bible, he wrote, is indeed the supreme authority for Catholics, who turn to the Church hierarchy only as Protestants consult their ministers. While acknowledging the college's right to exclude Catholics -- and knowing his position was endangered -- he replied that as a matter of principle, "I see no reason why I should be dismissed from the College upon joining the Roman Catholic Church."[/quote]

Here's a segment from [url="http://www.wheaton.edu/welcome/mission.html#faith"]Wheaton's statement of faith[/url]:
[quote][T]he Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are verbally inspired by God and inerrant in the original writing, so that they are fully trustworthy and of supreme and final authority in all they say.[/quote]

Now, one of the commentators on Amy Wellborn's blog [url="http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2006/01/evangelicals_an.html"]Open Book[/url] (posting as Thomas Aquinas) says that Dei Verbum does not preclude a Catholic from affirming that statement.

Here's part of his conclusion:
[quote]The latter claims the authority to judge INTERPRETATIONS of Sacred Scripture and the Word of God. In conjunction with the former, I don't see that any claim is made that the authority of the Church is in fact a higher authority than the Word of God itself, which Word of God is constitued by a unity of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.[/quote]

[url="http://www.mirrorofjustice.com/mirrorofjustice/2006/01/the_catholic_ch.html#trackback"]Mirror of Justice poster Thomas Berg [/url]posts the relevant bits from Dei Verbum on MOJ, for those interested; he concludes that a Catholic could, depending on the interpretations one ascribes both to the Wheaton statements and Dei Verbum, affirm the Wheaton statement.

Any thoughts on this?

[Didacus]

[quote][T]he Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are verbally inspired by God and inerrant in the original writing, so that they are fully trustworthy and of supreme and final authority in all they say.[/quote]

Gonig out on a limb here, but I don't see anything wrong with that statement.

The only difference with a Catholic, as you aluded in your statement, is that we look to the pope for authoritive interpretation of the bible, who he in turn takes his own inpiration from the bible itself .

The only uncertainty I can see is the traditional side of the Catholic church. But in theory the traditional and the bible side of Catholicism does not contradict each other right? And the Wheaton statement does not say that "the bible is the ONLY authority" it only states that it is the "supreme and final authority".

[Era Might]

[quote]The Bible, he wrote, is indeed the supreme authority for Catholics, who turn to the Church hierarchy only as Protestants consult their ministers. [/quote]

It's not quite the same dynamic. Protestants do not place infallible faith in the decisions of their Pastors, whereas Catholics do.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 10 2006, 02:59 PM']It's not quite the same dynamic. Protestants do not place infallible faith in the decisions of their Pastors, whereas Catholics do.
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[/quote]
Yeah, that was the WSJ paraphrase; I don't know what he actually wrote.

However, I wouldn't say I put infallible faith in all the decisions of my pastors.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 10 2006, 03:04 PM']Yeah, that was the WSJ paraphrase; I don't know what he actually wrote.

However, I wouldn't say I put infallible faith in all the decisions of my pastors.
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[/quote]

Well, I meant the official decisions of the Bishops or the Bishop of Rome. Protestants do not generally believe any body can decide something for all Christians.

[rkwright]

I would say we also look to the Church for more than just interpretation; but for actually bringing us to Jesus through the sacraments, passing on the teachings of the Apostles, even putting the Bible itself together for us.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 10 2006, 12:59 PM']It's not quite the same dynamic. Protestants do not place infallible faith in the decisions of their Pastors, whereas Catholics do.
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[/quote]

But in turn, won't the Catholic pastor's decisions be based on scripture and on apostolic tradition? The core of the Catholic beliefs remains those two things, scriptures and the apostolic tradition, regardless of what is said by the pope since the pope would never come to a contradiciton of those two things.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jan 10 2006, 03:07 PM']But in turn, won't the Catholic pastor's decisions be based on scripture and on apostolic tradition?    The core of the Catholic beliefs remains those two things, scriptures and the apostolic tradition, regardless of what is said by the pope since the pope would never come to a contradiciton of those two things.
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Of course it will. But there still remains an essential difference, because Scripture is a book. Protestants acknowledge it as the "ultimate authority" not just in the sense that it is what all Christian faith must be based on, but that it stands alone, apart from any official "interpreter". Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium are all indispensable "stool legs" in Catholic theology.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Era Might

[Didacus]

[quote]Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium are all indispensable "stool legs" in Catholic [/quote]

Agreed.

However, my point, or better yet, my question;

Can it be said that the Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium take their source from the Sacred Scriptures?

If one can show this to be true for the Sacred Tradition, then consequently it must be true for the Magisterium since the Magisterium bases itself on the other two (to my limited understanding of course).

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Jan 10 2006, 02:37 PM']Any thoughts on this?
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They make it sound like Scripture and the teachings of the Church are somehow opposed, and this is not so. The pope is only one aspect of Sacred Tradition, and while he is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, he never teaches anything that would go against what the Church has taught throughout the ages. Tradition even goes back to the times of the Old Testament, when the Israelites recieved the written Torah and the Oral Torah. Sacred Tradition is so much bigger than the pope. There are past popes, ecumenical councils, teachings of the Saints, Doctors of the Church, etc.

To say that the Scriptures are the supreme authority would deny the Tradition that they came out of.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jan 10 2006, 03:15 PM']Agreed.

However, my point, or better yet, my question;

Can it be said that the Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium take their source from the Sacred Scriptures?

If one can show this to be true for the Sacred Tradition, then consequently it must be true for the Magisterium since the Magisterium bases itself on the other two (to my limited understanding of course).
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[/quote]

Sacred Tradition precedes Sacred Scripture. If anything, it could be said that Sacred Scripture takes its source from Sacred Tradition, because the Scriptures are just Sacred Tradition in written form.

Scripture is our ultimate authority (along with Sacred Tradition), in matters of doctrine. But in the context of an Evangelical statement of faith, Scripture is understood as an ultimate authority that stands alone. For Catholics, Scripture and Tradition are the "data", but the Magisterium is the "ultimate authority" when it comes to computing that data. Evangelicals do not share this point of faith in a Magisterium.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Era Might

[Didacus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 10 2006, 01:20 PM']Sacred Tradition precedes Sacred Scripture. If anything, it could be said that Sacred Scripture takes its source from Sacred Tradition, because the Scriptures are just Sacred Tradition in written form.
[/quote]

Good point.

Is one is simply a different form of the other, then can one not say that both are in a certain manner equivalent?


[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 10 2006, 01:20 PM']Scripture is our ultimate authority (along with Sacred Tradition), in matters of doctrine. But in the context of an Evangelical statement of faith, Scripture is understood as an ultimate authority that stands alone. For Catholics, Scripture and Tradition are the "data", but the Magisterium is the "ultimate authority" when it comes to computing that data. Evangelicals do not share this point of faith in a Magisterium.
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[/quote]

The difference is simply in the 'computation of data'.

Regardless of your religion, you need to adhere to someone or something that will authoritively compute the data for you?!?! Wether it be the Pope, the Bishop of Canteburry or Charles Manson; unless you go off and start your own religion - tried it, did't work (couldn't get tax breaks, imagine that!).

I guess this is one of the points where I misunderstand how the portestants understand us, or I misunderstand the protestants themselves.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jan 10 2006, 03:36 PM']Good point.

Is one is simply a different form of the other, then can one not say that both are in a certain manner equivalent?
The difference is simply in the 'computation of data'.

Regardless of your religion, you need to adhere to someone or something that will authoritively compute the data for you?!?!  Wether it be the Pope, the Bishop of Canteburry or Charles Manson; unless you go off and start your own religion - tried it, did't work (couldn't get tax breaks, imagine that!). 

I guess this is one of the points where I misunderstand how the portestants understand us, or I misunderstand the protestants themselves.
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[/quote]

Yes, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are equally authoritative. They are both part of the same Deposit of Faith delivered by Christ through his Apostles.

It's true that everyone has a "Pope", so to speak, but it doesn't have to be an outside authority. It can be yourself. There are Protestant confessions of faith, but these aren't the same as dogmatic formulations in Catholicism.. They are, rather, more like common points of agreement. Ultimately, each individual must appeal to the Scriptures, and decide its meaning for themselves. This is the sense in which Scripture is believed to be the "ultimate authority". There is no ecclesiastical body guided by the Holy Spirit which communicates Divine Revelation infallibly.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Era Might

[Didacus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Jan 10 2006, 01:58 PM']Yes, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are equally authoritative. They are both part of the same Deposit of Faith delivered by Christ through his Apostles.
[snip]

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[/quote]

Thus one does not contradict Sacred Tradition by saying Sacred Scripture is the ultimate authority?

Ouch... now my head hurts and I'm confused...

Edited January 10, 2006 by Didacus

[Era Might]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jan 10 2006, 04:08 PM']Thus one does not contradict Sacred Tradition by saying Sacred Scripture is the ultimate authority?

Ouch... now my head hurts and I'm confused...
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[/quote]

Scripture is not the ultimate authority, in the sense that you have to answer to Scripture alone. As Catholics, we believe we must answer to the Magisterium. The Magisterium must answer to Scripture and Tradition.