Socrates Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I've seen liberals state in various other debates here that Jesus was a liberal (or even a socialist/Communist), or would've been such today. I'd like to challenge them to give any solid evidence for this. (Concrete evidence only please. Vague and nebulous statements like "Jesus loved everybody" won't cut it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAM Dad Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I, for one, am just glad to see that you've found liberals who admit that Jesus existed. To properly enter into this debate you have to first define what 'liberal' means. Don't try to do anything until you first agree on what liberal means and then you can contest their arguments one issue at a time. I must warn you though, arguing with liberals is like arguing with idiots. It is a bad idea. They first drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience. Good Luck p.s. - You can start with the abortion issue. Most everybody agrees that liberals believe in 'choice'. Scripture is clear on its objection to abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAM Dad Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Heh, I just realized that your user name is Socrates and I advocated using a socratic method of debate. Funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tata126 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 I would just like to point out that I am not a liberal, so if I'm one of the ones you're referring to, you've got me wrong. I don't think Jesus was a liberal; I think he can't be classified, and that means that I don't think he was a conservative either. My point in talking about his treatment of women was to point out that Light and Truth's point shouldn't be thrown off so lightly, and to indicate that your offhand disparagment of liberals was uncalled for and a little bit offensive. That said, I think this is a stupid discussion because Jesus obviously didn't live in the political environment in which we live, so our modern political categories don't fit him at all. He also was careful to keep from getting on one side or the other of the political categories of his time, c.f. the discussion about "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 8, 2006 Author Share Posted January 8, 2006 [quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 8 2006, 04:05 PM']I, for one, am just glad to see that you've found liberals who admit that Jesus existed. To properly enter into this debate you have to first define what 'liberal' means. Don't try to do anything until you first agree on what liberal means and then you can contest their arguments one issue at a time. I must warn you though, arguing with liberals is like arguing with idiots. It is a bad idea. They first drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience. Good Luck p.s. - You can start with the abortion issue. Most everybody agrees that liberals believe in 'choice'. Scripture is clear on its objection to abortion. [right][snapback]849729[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I've been on these boards a while, and am familiar with arguing with liberals. (They do exist on phatmass, believe it or not.) I'd prefer to let the liberals who assert that Jesus was a liberal first explain what they mean by this, and then give evidence to back up their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 8, 2006 Author Share Posted January 8, 2006 [quote name='Tata126' date='Jan 8 2006, 04:11 PM']I would just like to point out that I am not a liberal, so if I'm one of the ones you're referring to, you've got me wrong. I don't think Jesus was a liberal; I think he can't be classified, and that means that I don't think he was a conservative either. My point in talking about his treatment of women was to point out that Light and Truth's point shouldn't be thrown off so lightly, and to indicate that your offhand disparagment of liberals was uncalled for and a little bit offensive. That said, I think this is a stupid discussion because Jesus obviously didn't live in the political environment in which we live, so our modern political categories don't fit him at all. He also was careful to keep from getting on one side or the other of the political categories of his time, c.f. the discussion about "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's." [right][snapback]849733[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You are not the primary reason I made this thread. This issue has come up in a number of places. It is a common assertion among Lefty types that Jesus was some sort of proto-Marxist revolutionary, or was a socialist, or was an activist for economic or social egalitarianism. I agree, these kinds of statements are anachronistic and stupid, but this doesn't mean they aren't made. I've even seen a few imply that Jesus would have supported "gay marriage" and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Check out this website: [url="http://www.cafepress.com/turn_left"]http://www.cafepress.com/turn_left[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Peter Kreeft wrote something along the lines of a refutation against referring to Christ as a "conservative" or "liberal". And a seminary professor of a friend of mine thinks Jesus would have taken offense to such labels. According to Kreeft, Christ escaped being a liberal by confronting sin and acknowledging it as such and escaped being a conservative by not projecting a hatred for sin upon the sinner as condemnation. Instead, he fulfilled the Law in higher ways - by forgiveness. Forgiveness acknowledges the severity of sin and the need for justice while all at once proclaiming mercy and compassion for the sinner. Christ was orthodox to himself - not conservative or liberal. He couldn't be "liberal" because that would mean abandoning the Law. He couldn't be "conservative" because that would mean he's bound to it (as if it's higher than him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAM Dad Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Jan 8 2006, 06:28 PM']Peter Kreeft wrote something along the lines of a refutation against referring to Christ as a "conservative" or "liberal". And a seminary professor of a friend of mine thinks Jesus would have taken offense to such labels. According to Kreeft, Christ escaped being a liberal by confronting sin and acknowledging it as such and escaped being a conservative by not projecting a hatred for sin upon the sinner as condemnation. Instead, he fulfilled the Law in higher ways - by forgiveness. Forgiveness acknowledges the severity of sin and the need for justice while all at once proclaiming mercy and compassion for the sinner. Christ was orthodox to himself - not conservative or liberal. He couldn't be "liberal" because that would mean abandoning the Law. He couldn't be "conservative" because that would mean he's bound to it (as if it's higher than him). [right][snapback]849771[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well said. Quoting Kreeft always gets high marks in my book. I'm currently reading [u]A Refutation of Moral Relativism[/u], have you read it yet? It's quite good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 [quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Jan 8 2006, 05:37 PM']Well said. Quoting Kreeft always gets high marks in my book. I'm currently reading [u]A Refutation of Moral Relativism[/u], have you read it yet? It's quite good. [right][snapback]849775[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not yet. = ) I love listening to his lectures (you can get them off his [url="http://www.peterkreeft.com"]website[/url]) and one of them was a summary of that book, I believe. The only two books of his that I've read are [i]Fundamentals of the Faith [/i]and [i]Catholic Christianity. [/i]I'm currently reading his [i]Handbook of Christian Apologetics[/i]. He's a brilliant logician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 [quote name='Tata126' date='Jan 8 2006, 05:11 PM']I would just like to point out that I am not a liberal, so if I'm one of the ones you're referring to, you've got me wrong. I don't think Jesus was a liberal; I think he can't be classified, and that means that I don't think he was a conservative either. My point in talking about his treatment of women was to point out that Light and Truth's point shouldn't be thrown off so lightly, and to indicate that your offhand disparagment of liberals was uncalled for and a little bit offensive. That said, I think this is a stupid discussion because Jesus obviously didn't live in the political environment in which we live, so our modern political categories don't fit him at all. He also was careful to keep from getting on one side or the other of the political categories of his time, c.f. the discussion about "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's." [right][snapback]849733[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I might disagree with you. See, I have an inclination to classify Him as "perfect." : J/K! PS Do not hit me the next time I see you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Jan 8 2006, 04:44 PM']Not yet. = ) I love listening to his lectures (you can get them off his [url="http://www.peterkreeft.com"]website[/url]) and one of them was a summary of that book, I believe. The only two books of his that I've read are [i]Fundamentals of the Faith [/i]and [i]Catholic Christianity. [/i]I'm currently reading his [i]Handbook of Christian Apologetics[/i]. He's a brilliant logician. [right][snapback]849777[/snapback][/right] [/quote] ooo I didn't know he had a website and lecutures there. Will have to check it out!! I have his Summa of the summa and the footnotes he provides. I also highly agree with your first post. We shouldn't try to conform Jesus to our standards or labels. Its like the pharisees questioning him, well are you an orthodox jew or what? eating with the sinners, preaching to the gentiles, He is truly revolutionary. Isn't it also some sort of fallacy to use something as a referent? I've forgotten the name of it, but when you appeal to a name or something? ie Hitler did that :. we shouldn't or Jesus was a liberal :. you should be. Whats the name of it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 btw what is up with sooo many political threads these days??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I started mine to get a background on people in here. Otherwise, I think one sparked them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 8 2006, 05:37 PM']I started mine to get a background on people in here. Otherwise, I think one sparked them all. [right][snapback]849807[/snapback][/right] [/quote] a background eh...you working for the government?? time to go in hiding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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