Teatime with Freud

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Colleen]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Jan 7 2006, 12:43 AM']everytime i see socrates' avatar, i think of winchester
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Me too.

[franciscanheart]

bump for shortnun... attempting to stay on topic.

[Birgitta Noel]

BTTT for Shortnun. Question, Shortnun, why does complimentarity preclude equality in your mind?

[Socrates]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Jan 6 2006, 11:43 PM']everytime i see socrates' avatar, i think of winchester
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I stole it!

Heh heh heh heh heh!

A great avatar like that shouldn't go to waste!

[Jaime]

Straying back to the original topic, Freud wasn't completely off. While it can be argued that people aren't trying to find a mother/father stand in (i.e. Oedipus complex) people are drawn to what they've learned and are familiar with.

For example, women who's father's were/are alcoholics have a strong tendency to marry alcoholics. Why? Because its what they've learned. There is a period in our lives when we learn everything uconditionally from our parents. It isn't until we're around 8 when we realize that our parents are fallible. (Sometimes later)


One thing that I've learned during my life. In my opinion there are few things stronger than the love a daughter has for her father. It is one of the most powerful forces on earth. Fathers would do well to respect that.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Jan 6 2006, 11:43 PM']everytime i see socrates' avatar, i think of winchester
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Me too!

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 8 2006, 10:17 AM']Straying back to the original topic, Freud wasn't completely off.  While it can be argued that people aren't trying to find a mother/father stand in (i.e. Oedipus complex)  people are drawn to what they've learned and are familiar with. 

For example, women who's father's were/are alcoholics have a strong tendency to marry alcoholics.  Why?  Because its what they've learned.  There is a period in our lives when we learn everything uconditionally from our parents.  It isn't until we're around 8 when we realize that our parents are fallible. (Sometimes later)
One thing that I've learned during my life.  In my opinion there are few things stronger than the love a daughter has for her father.  It is one of the most powerful forces on earth.  Fathers would do well to respect that.
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what happens when a daughter comes to loathe the person her father is?

[Jaime]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 8 2006, 12:03 PM']what happens when a daughter comes to loathe the person her father is?
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That's the part that amazes me. I've known (and worked with) women who's fathers did unforgiveable things. (including incest)

While the women hated their fathers, it didn't cancel out the love. No matter what the father did, the women (while not speaking of it) still overwhelmingly desired resolution and acceptance from their fathers. And until they worked through it, it greatly impacted their ability to trust another man. I have one friend who worked to repair her relationship with the father that raped her.

Its seems like a nearly unbreakable bond. And I don't think enough fathers honor that.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 8 2006, 12:22 PM']That's the part that amazes me.  I've known (and worked with) women who's fathers did unforgiveable things. (including incest) 

While the women hated their fathers, it didn't cancel out the love.  No matter what the father did, the women (while not speaking of it) still overwhelmingly desired resolution and acceptance from their fathers.  And until they worked through it, it greatly impacted their ability to trust another man.  I have one friend who worked to repair her relationship with the father that raped her. 

Its seems like a nearly unbreakable bond.  And I don't think enough fathers honor that.
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Parents get divorced, too...and it's always interesting that it really does hurt the children the most. It's deeply spiritual...in a mystical sense, I imagine it's sort of like being torn apart...a person is a compilation in a sense of his or her parents...

So when a father hurts his daughter, it's no surprise that she still wants to be loved and appreciated by him...that will never go away...there is a bond there.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jan 8 2006, 12:22 PM']That's the part that amazes me.  I've known (and worked with) women who's fathers did unforgiveable things. (including incest) 

While the women hated their fathers, it didn't cancel out the love.  No matter what the father did, the women (while not speaking of it) still overwhelmingly desired resolution and acceptance from their fathers.  And until they worked through it, it greatly impacted their ability to trust another man.  I have one friend who worked to repair her relationship with the father that raped her. 

Its seems like a nearly unbreakable bond.  And I don't think enough fathers honor that.
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it's sad but it's true. you make some good points.

would you think that a woman seeking someone like her father (assuming that he is emotionally, physically, or otherwise abusive) is something unhealthy or inevitable?

[Jaime]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 8 2006, 02:26 PM']it's sad but it's true. you make some good points.

would you think that a woman seeking someone like her father (assuming that he is emotionally, physically, or otherwise abusive) is something unhealthy or inevitable?
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I think we all have the capability to change. But the only way to do that is to first recognize what we're doing and why. I'm certain that most (if not all) women do not set out intentionally to find an unhealthy relationship. And most everyone gets into an unhealthy relationship on occasion. But if a pattern emerges, there's usually a reason. (i.e. if someone constantly dates someone who is abusive)

The better we know ourselves, the better armed we are at not falling into the same traps over and over.

[franciscanheart]

i think its difficult to step outside of your comfort zone, even if your comfort zone is unhealthy, and i think that prevents a lot of people from finding good relationships.

ill write more later -- i definitely have more thoughts. youth mass is calling.

[shortnun]

I'm back from my wedding (not [i]mine[/i], but one I went to) and will attempt to address all questions/comments in an orderly and articulate fashion....

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 6 2006, 10:43 AM']Now to address what you have said I will say this: I do believe that our culture, or our nation, has been changed drastically due to the manipulation of roles in society and in the household. Blurred, to me, seems a bit weak. It is a weak word to use for what has really happened in our country. [Here I choose only to address our country as we are not exactly like any one country in the world and I dare not label or define those people whom I know little about.] Society several hundred years ago and society today are so drastically different it makes my head spin. I do understand the need for change and I will address that again in a moment but change does not need to mean, nor [i]does[/i] it mean, distortion or manipulation of things that are normal. [The word normal could be disputed here but again, I will address that in a moment.]
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Hughey, for the sake of continuity, I too shall try to keep my argument focused on American culture. Whereas you hold that a manipulation of roles in society and the household results in their weakening, I ask if it is responsible for us as a Church to limit men and women into (in my opinion) narrow categories? I think the Church is slowly coming to terms with the idea that they must address those members of the body of Christ who (for good or ill) no longer fit into the prescribed categories for men and women.

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 6 2006, 10:43 AM']I think that maybe we have not quite reached the imapasse you claim we have reached. I do respect that feeling and let me say that I too am comforted by such conversations. Instead of completely replying this time I am going to make an attempt at asking questions to first clarify that which I am not positive I understand. First, do you believe that there are predefined roles that men have based not only on what God has commanded them to do but also based on biological make-up which gives them the urges to do certain things (in this case I also believe to be in sync with God's plan)? Would you say the same for women? When you say "constant state of change", what do you mean? (I understand the phrase but I am not sure I understand it in the way that you mean. I too believe we are in a constant state of change but I believe we say that, again, with different meaning.) One last one.. Do you believe that men and women can be equal and complementary at the same time?
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My starting point for understanding humanity begins with the moment of human creation. The God-give free will and intellect human beings possess separates us from all other creation. The responsiblity that comes from such gifts (that of intellect and free will) is huge. It is from here that I further strive to understand the role that humans have in bringing about the common good, the Kingdom of God, and how men and women interact to bring this about. I do believe that there are tremendous similarities in the biological make-up of men and women. That having been said, I acknowledge the differences as well (sheer physical strenght and cognitive processes are two differences that come to mind). As for whether or not these differences necessitate or illude to predefined roles that are divinely defined, I am not certain. I see the Church's teaching of the complimentarity of men and women as one attempt to understand human creation and our relationship to the divine.

When I say "human beings exist in a constant state of change" I am implying that human beings, by our very nature (biologically and thus from the moment of our divine creation), are social. We exist in relationship with one another (and with our Creator), not as individual, isolated entities. So when you (or someone else) implies that there is a deficiency in our current existence (this is obvious, as we are sinful) and that there is something to which we must return, I hesitate. I believe that the graced existence we live in drives us forward each day, closer to the parousia--where God will be all in all. So when something of the past, or of yesteryear, is cited as ideal, I worry about how realistic it is that we could "return" to that. Is that reality of the past capable of being a reality now? and so forth. It is helpful to look to our past (as a human race, as a Church, a nation, a person, etc) and to learn from our mistakes. It is dangerous when we do not learn from our experiences. Likewise, it is also dangerous when are naiive enough to believe that we could isolate positive aspects of history and bring them into the future without any (negative) repercusions.

As for women and men being equal and complimentary at the same time... by saying that men and women are complimentary implies that there are roles that one person has obligations in the relationship to the other person. This does not result, for me, in a partnership, but can result in a hierarchy of one set of roles being more important than another. Equality does not negate the obligations that one person has to another. It allows for a partnership between a man and a woman to not have exclusive obligations to one another (such as who is the "nurturer" or "protector"). Thus in an equal relationship where the roles and obligations are held in common and shared, both persons still find fulfillment in the relationship (as is the claim made in the complimentary view).

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jan 6 2006, 10:43 AM']I hope that none of my questions has left me looking like a fool, and if they have I thank the Lord for showing me my pride (be it conscious or not). I am enjoying this conversation very much.
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Certainly such questions, when done in pursuit of the truth, are not foolish. And if they are, then we can start a "geniuses Club" together. I too am enjoying all those involved and contributing to this conversation.

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 6 2006, 08:01 PM']You do not think men and women should be complimentary?

"Complimentary" means having roles that help and fulfill one another.
The complimentary roles of man and woman are at the basis of the family and of society.

It is because of modern social movements that want to keep men and women from being complimentary that we have so much of our current problems in society.
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Socrates, my own opinions and understanding about men and women and their roles toward spreading the Kingdom of Heaven remain unformed as pertains to complimentary and equal views of sexuality. Conversations such as this, that are genuine in their search for the truth, are helping my in my pursuit. In my understanding it is the complimentary view of sexuality that is the basis for the Church's teachings on family and society. My questioning of this teaching is done with a hope that I will better understand it and the implications (positive and negative) that come about as a result.

I do not fully understand what you mean by "modern social movements" that you say work in opposition to the Church's teaching of complimentary sexuality. Yes, I acknowledge that some feminist and even economic and political views do not support the teachings of the Church. But at the same time, I know that those movements have at times called to the Church to acknowledge its short comings and have brought about much needed reforms.

[quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Jan 7 2006, 09:20 PM']BTTT for Shortnun.  Question, Shortnun, why does complimentarity preclude equality in your mind?
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Birgitta, I do not necessarily think that complimentarity precludes equality. However, I do think that complimentarity can lead to an implied hierarchy that I am uncomfortable with. I would emphasis new definitions of such terms whereby [i]an understanding of equality includes a fulfillment of personhood[/i] in another.

[Birgitta Noel]

Hmmm, ok, I'm trying to work through everything you've said. This is a great discussion. Shortnun, I'd love to chat with you about feminism some time, particularly Catholic feminism, I think it might give you some more resources to work through some of this

In related news, I'm on campus on the 12th, will you be around?