scardella Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 A discussion last night prompted me this thought: Is it possible to separate one's acts and one's identity? No, because every act either reinforces who you are or serves to change it in some way. Thus, as long as we are in time, who we are is inexorably bound up in what we choose. However, we can play an active or a passive role in this. If you take a passive role, you only wind up reacting to stimuli around you. You effectively become no better than an animal. You're letting external forces shape who you are and what you do. However, if you lead an active role, you realize that every act of the will will change you. When you come to that realization, you must consider not only what you want, but where that choice will lead you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 Last night, there was a little nuance to this... There's this nice little paradox in that your decisions flow from who you are already, but, in making that decision, you are modifying who you are, which will change other decisions you make, which will further modify you, which will ... Additionally, it seems to have some relationship to grace and sanctification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 "It's not who I am underneath, but my actions that define me." ~ [i]Batman Begins[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I love that quote... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I am a catholic i have a problem acting christ like though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 umm yes and no... like at the time of the action I would say yes, but I would be hesistant to let it define me. Like say sin for example, I sinned in my past you could call me a sinner. But I try not to sin every day. When I pray I realize I am a sinner and need Christ, but I don't let that define me, instead I would see it as I'm doing my best to not sin and to avoid sin. Its kinda tough because the conntations of the word come into play. I don't like thinking I am sinner, even though I have, I want to think that overall I'm trying to do God's will and I occiasionally screw up. Maybe thats just pride, but I would feel like if I constantly told myself I am a sinner I am bad I have turned my back on God I would never get anywhere in life. It would go for other people too, just because someone messed up with me one time, and I could rightly call them a liar or whatever, I wouldn't want that to define who they are. Give 'em another chance type deal. Follow? Anyone agree or am I way off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 how about 'you can if you let them', Just becuase you messed up once doesn't mean you have to let it run your life and become mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:02 PM']umm yes and no... like at the time of the action I would say yes, but I would be hesistant to let it define me. Like say sin for example, I sinned in my past you could call me a sinner. But I try not to sin every day. When I pray I realize I am a sinner and need Christ, but I don't let that define me, instead I would see it as I'm doing my best to not sin and to avoid sin. Its kinda tough because the conntations of the word come into play. I don't like thinking I am sinner, even though I have, I want to think that overall I'm trying to do God's will and I occiasionally screw up. Maybe thats just pride, but I would feel like if I constantly told myself I am a sinner I am bad I have turned my back on God I would never get anywhere in life. It would go for other people too, just because someone messed up with me one time, and I could rightly call them a liar or whatever, I wouldn't want that to define who they are. Give 'em another chance type deal. Follow? Anyone agree or am I way off... [right][snapback]848341[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What Batman is saying is consistent with traditional moral teaching. Virtue and vice are gained by habit. A man may not feel "virtuous" inside when he first turns from vice and begins practicing virtuous actions, but his virtuous actions shape his soul, and by preforming virtuous acts he becomes actually virtuous. (Even though these actions may not at first feel "natural" to him.) Likewise, one cannot habitually perform sinful or vicious actions, but excuse himself because "he's still a great guy underneath." Of course, interior disposition has its importance in determining the rightness or wrongness of one's actions, but it is the choices for virtuous or vicious actions that determine one's moral status. Actions matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 6 2006, 05:18 PM']What Batman is saying is consistent with traditional moral teaching. Virtue and vice are gained by habit. A man may not feel "virtuous" inside when he first turns from vice and begins practicing virtuous actions, but his virtuous actions shape his soul, and by preforming virtuous acts he becomes actually virtuous. (Even though these actions may not at first feel "natural" to him.) Likewise, one cannot habitually perform sinful or vicious actions, but excuse himself because "he's still a great guy underneath." Of course, interior disposition has its importance in determining the rightness or wrongness of one's actions, but it is the choices for virtuous or vicious actions that determine one's moral status. Actions matter. [right][snapback]848347[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with you here, especially your last sentence. But I think I was more on the idea that while actions can define you, you can change your mindset and then change your actions. Edited January 7, 2006 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:28 PM']I agree with you here, especially your last sentence. But I think I was more on the idea that while actions can define you, you can change your mindset and then change your actions. [right][snapback]848350[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You disagree that actions matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 no no not at all... Your actions define what you are, but you can change who you are. I wouldn't want my mind to get stuck in the past or my actions would also. If I want to do good I've got to change myself in my mind, and even though it doesn't define me yet, its like the first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:43 PM']"It's not who I am underneath, but my actions that define me." ~ [i]Batman Begins[/i] [right][snapback]848322[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have a problem with this quote. It's incorrectly attributed by the tenses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 6 2006, 06:39 PM']no no not at all... Your actions define what you are, but you can change who you are. [right][snapback]848355[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And this is done by changing one's actions. Unless one's actions change, the "conversion" is worthless. "And why do we fall, Master Bruce?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 6 2006, 05:44 PM']And this is done by changing one's actions. Unless one's actions change, the "conversion" is worthless. "And why do we fall, Master Bruce?" [right][snapback]848359[/snapback][/right] [/quote] well its kinda circular, do you change your mind before you change your actions? or do you change your actions to change your mind? I would say that we change our mind to change our actions to re-define oneself. So I've got to change how I define myself in order to change my actions in order to re-define. Although I don;t have a psychology degree and I'm really reaching at straws here. If someone has something profound please feel free to add it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I think that both happen. The reason the Church calls us to do some actions is in hopes we will gain virtue from the repeated habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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