do protestants understand salvation to the fullest

[JimFurst]

Hi Infinitelord1

My point was that different Protestant groups have different beliefs about what is required for salvation. You can't just say this is what you do if you are a Protestant.

There are some who believe that through faith alone you will be saved. Once saved ---always saved. There are denominations who believe there is an "elect" they were basically "born saved."

Catholics believe that we are continuously working out our own salvation. Its not a "done deal." We are always accountable and salvation can be lost. Faith and works are an important part of the equation.

Some Protestants are very close to us in this view. Others i.e. Calvinists are in complete disagreement. There is not a "specific" united Protestant view about salvation. You really have to investigate each group to find out what thier beliefs regarding the requirements for salvation are.

Jim

[Paphnutius]

CCC[quote]1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. [/quote]

JS, I do not understand why you think that every bad act is a grave matter. That is an injustice to say that the one who chews tobacco is committing an equally evil act as someone who orders mass genocide. Okay..this little kid told a white lie, so he is just as guilty in God's eyes as Hitler...I do not think that God treats every bad act in a blanket fashion.

[Church Punk]

In the Catholic view, mortal sin is truly turning from God in full knowledge via any number of vices. Having committed mortal sin we are not outside of the grace of God because we have been baptized in Christ, we have died with Christ and have been reborn with him in the resurrection. However when we have the tendency to sin we distance our selves from God. Turning back to the Lord can only solve this distancing.

In Catholic teaching, if the sin is of grave nature, we must seek the sacrament of reconciliation to become in full communion with the Church again, this resolves us of our sins and if death should strikes us will be directed to Heaven.

However if death should strike while in the state of mortal sin, we are not out side of the grace of God but however need to be purified via purgatory and then elevated to Heaven.

See it is through our baptism in the Church that guarantees us the full grace of God.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Jan 2 2006, 06:11 AM']However if death should strike while in the state of mortal sin, we are not out side of the grace of God but however need to be purified via purgatory and then elevated to Heaven.

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I thought that even purgatory doesn't work for mortal sins? Am I mistaken?

[JimFurst]

While I personally believe God has the final word as far as judgement goes. (He can save who he wants)

My (Catholic) understanding has been that if you die in the state of unconfessed and unrepented mortal sin, you are probably in deep deep trouble. Purgatory would not be enough or an option to save you.

We could then only hope for God's mercy.
I tend to be an optimist with regard to God's knowing whats in our heart, but I also worry alot----

Jim

[Church Punk]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 2 2006, 12:50 PM']I thought that even purgatory doesn't work for mortal sins?  Am I mistaken?
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No I am mistaken; we must seek repentance of all mortal sin, purgatory will only purge venial sin. However what I was getting at, by our baptism we are brought into the fold of Christ. It is up to us not to blow it. I guess it is comes to this - how can Jesus save us if we will not let him? When we are in perpetual sin?

Salvation:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm[/url]

Purgatory:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm[/url]

Baptism:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm[/url]

[CreepyCrawler]

This is my incomplete understanding of what the Church teaches about mortal sin and salvation.

Christ came down to earth and died for the salvation of all. He offers that salvation to every person along with the choice to accept or reject Him. If one chooses to accept Christ, and gets baptized (as it tells us to in the Bible) so that Christ can use this sacrament to wash away our sins, then a person begins on the journey of a relationship with Christ, aka salvation. At any point on that journey a person can reject Christ and say, hey, I'm not having this anymore, and essentially reject the salvation that Christ offered and gave to them. One way to do this is to commit a mortal sin, which is a grave sin that one must choose to do knowing full well that it is as grave sin, such as murder, adultery, etc. The choosing to do so despite knowledge of it is important in distinguishing it from venial sin because a grave sin is something so big and awful that you are essentially rejecting Christ by rejecting the promptings of the Holy Spirit and going ahead and doing it. If you do not repent of it and ask for forgiveness, then you are staying in a state of rejection of God, and therefore are not in a state of grace, b/c how can the grace which comes from Christ reside in your soul when you are actively refusing to repent of a sin and rejecting Christ? So it is not the sin in itself that causes a 'loss of salvation' but rather a choice to reject the salvation that Christ gives a person.

Even Protestants believe that one should repent of their sins and ask Christ to forgive them... if someone committed murder and refused to repent, then they would be said to have 'never been saved.' This essentially is another way of saying that they're not in a state of grace, but in this description, it's as if God wasn't enough in the beginning when the person was 'saved.'

Also, I don't believe that smoking is a sin. I believe that addiction is a sin, but to say that smoking is a sin b/c it defiles the temple of the holy spirit, then eating junk food is a sin and eating deep fried goodies and things with artificial sweetners or drinking coffee are sins b/c those also cause damage to the human body. People can be just as addicted to junk food as they are to smoking. But there are people and cultures that view smoking as another thing to enjoy the taste and smell of and not to abuse, just like food.

[desertwoman]

Salvation for this lowly Pro.


I must beleive that Jesus died for my sins.

That Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

That Jesus was conceived of the Virigin Mary and she was beyond reproach.

That works without faith is a tree that bears no fruit.

To be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[scardella]

When you commit mortal sin, you REJECT God's saving grace. When you repent of those sins, you once again accept the grace. Therefore, when you commit mortal sin, you are separated from God's grace, and that grace is what prevents you from going to hell.

Does that make sense?

If you're saying that rejecting it doesn't matter once you've accepted it, then you're negating free will or saying that God does not respect the free will He gave us.

[Diamond]

Well I'm from a non-denominational type Protestant church. My understanding (limited) of this Church is that you have to believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior and publically profess him as your Lord in Baptism. After that point, you are NOT beyond losing that salvation. However, you ARE a saint in God's eyes. When we sin it is the exception, not the rule. We are no longer seen by God as sinful, terrible creatures, though that is our nature. He has filled us with His Spirit and when we sin, it's that nature creeping back in. We still can obviously turn our back on God or allow sin to get in the way of our relationship and never truly let him be Lord of our hearts. This is my understanding of our Church's stance and what I believe.

I also believe that while it IS faith alone, from a certain point of view, that saves us, faith MUST lead to works or it is obviously not present. Anyone who says they have faith but never displays the Love and Charity of Christ outwardly is someone whose faith I would question. I believe that authentic faith will naturally be accompanied by works. It's a sort of package deal. The idea is that I believe in God and that belief, fear and awe make me his servant. I try to do what he asks of me, though my human nature interferes and I still sin and fall short of his glory on a daily basis. However, though I turn my back on Him with some actions, my heart is always with Him. When I do something wrong, I feel the need to be cleansed and ask for forgiveness, confessing what I have done wrong. I believe sin could be mortal in that it could seperate You from God and lead you to forsake Him or (even worse, in my opinion) claim Christianity but not live it out.

From my understanding, this is basically what the Catholic Church believes. It is also my understanding that the Catholic Church believes that Protestants are not outside salvation, but that perhaps we do not have as in-depth and accurate a view of God as they do. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the general idea as I understand it.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Diamond' date='Jan 3 2006, 12:16 PM']Well I'm from a non-denominational type Protestant church. My understanding (limited) of this Church is that you have to believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior and publically profess him as your Lord in Baptism. After that point, you are NOT beyond losing that salvation. However, you ARE a saint in God's eyes. When we sin it is the exception, not the rule. We are no longer seen by God as sinful, terrible creatures, though that is our nature. He has filled us with His Spirit and when we sin, it's that nature creeping back in. We still can obviously turn our back on God or allow sin to get in the way of our relationship and never truly let him be Lord of our hearts. This is my understanding of our Church's stance and what I believe.

I also believe that while it IS faith alone, from a certain point of view, that saves us, faith MUST lead to works or it is obviously not present. Anyone who says they have faith but never displays the Love and Charity of Christ outwardly is someone whose faith I would question. I believe that authentic faith will naturally be accompanied by works. It's a sort of package deal. The idea is that I believe in God and that belief, fear and awe make me his servant. I try to do what he asks of me, though my human nature interferes and I still sin and fall short of his glory on a daily basis. However,  though I turn my back on Him with some actions, my heart is always with Him. When I do something wrong, I feel the need to be cleansed and ask for forgiveness, confessing what I have done wrong. I believe sin could be mortal in that it could seperate You from God and lead you to forsake Him or (even worse, in my opinion) claim Christianity but not live it out.

From my understanding, this is basically what the Catholic Church  believes. It is also my understanding that the Catholic Church believes that Protestants are not outside salvation, but that perhaps we do not have as in-depth and accurate a view of God as they  do. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the general idea as I understand it.
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Perhaps this is a misunderstanding in my own thinking, but how can you be saved (via vis justification by faith ALONE) if you also admit man must show good works to be saved. Seems to be contradictory to me.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Diamond' date='Jan 3 2006, 11:16 AM']Well I'm from a non-denominational type Protestant church. My understanding (limited) of this Church is that you have to believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior and publically profess him as your Lord in Baptism. After that point, you are NOT beyond losing that salvation. However, you ARE a saint in God's eyes. When we sin it is the exception, not the rule. We are no longer seen by God as sinful, terrible creatures, though that is our nature. He has filled us with His Spirit and when we sin, it's that nature creeping back in. We still can obviously turn our back on God or allow sin to get in the way of our relationship and never truly let him be Lord of our hearts. This is my understanding of our Church's stance and what I believe.

I also believe that while it IS faith alone, from a certain point of view, that saves us, faith MUST lead to works or it is obviously not present. Anyone who says they have faith but never displays the Love and Charity of Christ outwardly is someone whose faith I would question. I believe that authentic faith will naturally be accompanied by works. It's a sort of package deal. The idea is that I believe in God and that belief, fear and awe make me his servant. I try to do what he asks of me, though my human nature interferes and I still sin and fall short of his glory on a daily basis. However,  though I turn my back on Him with some actions, my heart is always with Him. When I do something wrong, I feel the need to be cleansed and ask for forgiveness, confessing what I have done wrong. I believe sin could be mortal in that it could seperate You from God and lead you to forsake Him or (even worse, in my opinion) claim Christianity but not live it out.

From my understanding, this is basically what the Catholic Church  believes. It is also my understanding that the Catholic Church believes that Protestants are not outside salvation, but that perhaps we do not have as in-depth and accurate a view of God as they  do. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the general idea as I understand it.
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most of the christians i know are protestants. Calvinists to be exact. They judge people........look down on them. Ive also heard them say that good works follows naturally after being saved. Of course they claim to be saved. I see them as bigots and hippocrits. I see the way they act.......i dont see as close as a relationship with christ as i would in a catholic. I also hear a lot of protestants bashing gay people. I have never heard a catholic do that. Its one thing to bash gays and its a different thing to disagree with that lifestyle. I see the protestants that i know as being unaware of the things they do as being wrong. Thats another reason why i question if they understand salvation to the fullest. What i say here is based on my personal experience with protestants. I am not saying at all that they are all like this.

[Diamond]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jan 3 2006, 02:15 PM']
Perhaps this is a misunderstanding in my own thinking, but how can you be saved (via vis justification by faith ALONE) if you also admit man must show good works to be saved. Seems to be contradictory to me.
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The important thing, I think, is for that faith to be genuine. REAL, honest faith in Jesus as your Savior will change Your lifestyle and lead to good works. Simply, I believe it's a package deal. Faith brings about works. In this way, TRUE faith brings about salvation, but faith without works is still dead. Both statements are obviously true because they are Scripture. This is how both are true when they seem contradictory at first glance. We are saved by (true) faith alone. Not we are saved by believing alone or anything ridiculous like that.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Diamond' date='Jan 3 2006, 10:04 PM']The important thing, I think, is for that faith to be genuine. REAL, honest faith in Jesus as your Savior will change Your lifestyle and lead to good works. Simply, I believe it's a package deal. Faith brings about works. In this way, TRUE faith brings about salvation, but faith without works is still dead. Both statements are obviously true because they are Scripture. This is how both are true when they seem contradictory at first glance. We are saved by (true) faith alone. Not we are saved by believing alone or anything ridiculous like that.
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Perhaps it is coming down to the words we use then (typically I think this is the case). If we misunderstand words, we may misunderstand what God is calling us to.

Faith saves because of what faith is. Real faith is not comprised of a single prayer of belief in Christ as the Savior (Fundamental Protestantism). Faith in Christ comprises of trust in all Christ did and taught, and therefore in obedience to Him and to those whom He gave authority to. Faith is saving when faith is obedient (Romans 1:5). If we are to believe in the Son of God and have faith in Him, then we will be obedient to Him. Faith is proved, and we are justified, as Abraham was justified by faith - whether or not we are obedient to God by cooperating with the grace of God through our faith. Salvation is not by "faith alone" (heretical Protestantism) or by "faith + works" (heretical Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism), salvation rather is how the Bible says - covenantal, and as such is outside being confined to formula.

I'll stop there so I don't get too long winded.

Blessings,
Adam

[Dave]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Dec 31 2005, 05:29 PM']you know maybe chewing tobacco isnt a mortal sin. I think what makes it a mortal sin (if it is) if you know it is wrong but you continue to do it.
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Not quite. It's true that mortal sin is when you know something is wrong but do it anyway. But venial sin can also be deliberate. It's not enough to determine whether a certain action is a mortal sin simply by whether or not it's deliberate. One must also take into account whether or not it involves grave matter.