do protestants understand salvation to the fullest

[sweetpea316]

I've been raised to believe sola fide, by faith alone you are saved. (In the Lutheran church) But, I no longer believe this. Two things that we (Protestant & Catholic) do agree on are... 1. That it is by the grace of God... and 2. That you can receive salvation only through Christ.

I've been digging through the Bible and apologetics stuff lately to try and get the info I need to back my new Catholic beliefs up to my Protestant parents, so I've got a lot on my mind about this!

One of my favorite points though, is that the only place where the terms "faith alone" are used is in James....where it says that it is NOT by faith alone, but that works play into it also. Anyways...

[jesussaves]

*i dont believe the catholic church teaches that.*

It's called a mortal sin. Perhaps I should have specified a single "mortal" sin. But that Church does teach that anyone that has faith in Christ, but commits a single mortal sin and then die without happening to be repentant, will have all their graces that they earned remitted, including the grace of salvation. That person will burn in hell forever.

That is not the glory of the gosple! The gosple says that faith alone which must be accompanied by good works is what saves. No sin can cause separation to what God has saved.

Come, Lord, expel the darkness from the hearts and minds of these deceived, and enlighten them to your glory.

Edited December 31, 2005 by jesussaves

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:46 PM']*i dont believe the catholic church teaches that.*

It's called a mortal sin in CChurch teaching. Perhaps I should have specified a single "mortal" sin. But that Church does teach that anyone that has faith in Christ, but commits a single mortal sin and then die without happening to be repentant, will have all their graces that they earned remitted, including the grace of salvation. That person will burn in hell forever.

That is not the glory of the gosple! The gosple says that faith alone which must be accompanied by good works is what saves. No sin can cause separation to what God has saved.

Come, Lord, expel the darkness from the hearts and minds of these deceived, and enlighten them to your glory.
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I think that the true definition of mortal sin is a sin that we choose to continue to commit throughout the course of our lifespan. Isnt that what mortal sin is? A single mortal sin that i commit everyday would be chewing tabacco. The sin is mortal because it is a sin i do everyday.

[jesussaves]

You are mistaken about Catholic mortal sins. I will respond in two forms.

From the Catholic perspective, chewing tobacco is a venial bad habit, not mortal something you do everyday. A mortal sin are certain undefined sins which you must grow to understand as mortal, such as lustful thoughts, and then commit. If chewing tobacco everyday is a mortal sin, or whatever mortal sin you want to talk about, the ramifications of the sin is not only that you do it everyday. Once committed mortally, any faith in Christ which you have becomes nothing and you will be damned if you do not repent of your sin.

From my perspective, I think chewing tobacco is even a mortal sin. You are defiling God's temple of the Spirit. Pride for an example is putting yourself before God's truth breaking the first commandment.

Even if I were to grant a difference between the two sins, I also have a new theory regarding venial and mortal sins. I agree that Catholics believe that a venial sin does not separate them from salvation. The problem is that they believe a venial sin isn't as dangerous as a mortal sin. This allows them to not put their trust in Christ. They believe that as long as they don't commit these grave sins and only commit these lesser sins or theoretically no sins they are safe. They end up trusting in themselves and Christ, which essentially isn't trusting in Christ.

Edited December 31, 2005 by jesussaves

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 04:09 PM']You are mistaken about Catholic mortal sins. I will respond in two forms.

From the Catholic perspective, chewing tobacco is a venial bad habit, not mortal something you do everyday. A mortal sin are certain undefined sins which you must grow to understand as mortal, such as lustful thoughts, and then commit. Once committed, any faith in Christ which you have becomes nothing and you will be damned if you do not repent of your sin.

From my perspective, I think chewing tobacco is even a mortal sin. You are defiling God's temple of the Spirit. Pride for an example is putting yourself before God's truth.

Regardless, I also have a new theory regarding venial and mortal sins. I agree that Catholics believe that a venial sin does not separate them from salvation. The problem is that they believe a venial sin isn't as dangerous as a mortal sin. This allows them to not put their trust in Christ. They believe that as long as they don't commit these grave sins and only commit these lesser sins or theoretically no sins they are safe. They end up trusting in themselves and Christ, which essentially isn't trusting in Christ.
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Mortal Sin


The concept of mortal sin has been an integral part of the Christian message since the very beginning. Literally dozens of passages in the New Testament proclaim it a fearful reality, and these biblical teachings were fully accepted by, and indeed expounded upon, by the early Church Fathers.

It was not until the time of John Calvin that anyone would claim that it was impossible for a true Christian to lose his salvation. That teaching, which was not even shared by Martin Luther and his followers, was a theological novelty of the mid-sixteenth century, a teaching which would have been condemned as a dangerous heresy by all previous generations of Christians. It would drive people to the despair of thinking that, if they had committed grave sins, they had never been true Christians. Further, they would suffer similar anxiety over any subsequent conversion, since their first would not have been genuine, according to this teaching. Or it would drive them into thinking that their grave sins were really not grave at all, for no true Christian could have committed such sins.

In time the "once saved, always saved" teaching even degenerated in many Evangelical circles to the point that some would claim that a Christian could commit grave sins and still remain saved: sin did not injure his relationship with God at all.

Fortunately, most Christians today reject Calvin’s error, acknowledging that there are at least some mortal sins—sins which kill the spiritual life of the soul and deprive a person of salvation, unless he repents. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals—all acknowledge the possibility of mortal sin at least in some form. Only Presbyterians, Baptists, and those who have been influenced by these two sects reject the reality of mortal sin.

The early Church Fathers, of course, were unanimous in teaching the reality of mortal sin. They had to embrace the doctrine of mortal sin precisely because they recognized not only the salvific power of baptism but also the damning power of certain serious sins. The Church taught that "baptism . . . now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21; see the Catholic Answers tracts Baptismal Grace and Born of Water and the Spirit). However, since during the persecutions some baptized people denied Christ, and since Christ taught that "whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:33), the Church Fathers recognized that it was possible to lose the grace of salvation after baptism.

The idea that one could never lose salvation would have been unimaginable to them, since it was evident from the Bible that baptism saves, that the baptized can deny Christ, and that those who deny Christ will not be saved unless they repent, as did Peter.

It was equally unthinkable to predestinarian thinkers, such as Augustine, who, just two years before he died, taught in his book The Gift of Perseverance that not all who were predestined to come to God’s grace were predestined to remain with him until glory. This was, in fact, the teaching of all the high predestinarians (Augustine, Fulgentius, Aquinas, Luther)—until the time of Calvin.

Notice how the article points out that sins can deprive us from salvation if they go unrepented. Trust me this is what catholics believe.

Edited December 31, 2005 by infinitelord1

[jesussaves]

Yes, that is a biased interpretation of what your Church teaches. You are not bound by this.

What do you believe?

Once committed mortally, any faith in Christ which you have becomes nothing and you will be damned if you do not repent of your sin.

Do you believe this?

Edited December 31, 2005 by jesussaves

[Laudate_Dominum]

[infinitelord1]

i believe that a sin can deprive us from salvation so long as it goes unrepented.......this is what catholics believe. If I am wrong give me an example of how they dont.

[jesussaves]

Example. There was a man named Jesus. He died for our sins so that those who have faith in Him will not perish. I think you get the idea.

What do you want me to show you?

Pray and the Spirit will lead you.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 04:09 PM']You are mistaken about Catholic mortal sins. I will respond in two forms.

From the Catholic perspective, chewing tobacco is a venial bad habit, not mortal something you do everyday. A mortal sin are certain undefined sins which you must grow to understand as mortal, such as lustful thoughts, and then commit. If chewing tobacco everyday is a mortal sin, or whatever mortal sin you want to talk about, the ramifications of the sin is not only that you do it everyday. Once committed mortally, any faith in Christ which you have becomes nothing and you will be damned if you do not repent of your sin. 

From my perspective, I think chewing tobacco is even a mortal sin. You are defiling God's temple of the Spirit. Pride for an example is putting yourself before God's truth breaking the first commandment.

Even if I were to grant a difference between the two sins, I also have a new theory regarding venial and mortal sins. I agree that Catholics believe that a venial sin does not separate them from salvation. The problem is that they believe a venial sin isn't as dangerous as a mortal sin. This allows them to not put their trust in Christ. They believe that as long as they don't commit these grave sins and only commit these lesser sins or theoretically no sins they are safe. They end up trusting in themselves and Christ, which essentially isn't trusting in Christ.
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This is what i believe and what i also believe catholics believe.........we are to refrain from all sin and that any sin would direct us away from god. As far as unrepented sins go.......a single venial sin will not send you to hell..........a single mortal sin will. I would like to see the source that says catholics believe that chewing tobacco is a venial sin. Lets not let our own biased opinions direct us from reaching the truth.

Edited December 31, 2005 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

you know maybe chewing tobacco isnt a mortal sin. I think what makes it a mortal sin (if it is) if you know it is wrong but you continue to do it.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 04:23 PM']Example. There was a man named Jesus. He died for our sins so that those who have faith in Him will not perish. I think you get the idea.

What do you want me to show you?

Pray and the Spirit will lead you.
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this philosophy says that no sin will send you to hell so long as you believe in that sentence. Im sorry but i believe it is much more complicated than that. That is just the beginning of it all.......and im glad you said this because this is why i am questioning if protestants have the full understanding of salvation.

[Fidei Defensor]

I dont see the logic here.. If you purposely turn from God (via mortal sin), and you reject his grace, how can you be saved?

God doesnt send people to hell, we send ourselves. We choose hell over God. So if one chooses sin over God, they are rejecting him, and choosing hell.

Its not all that complicated..

[frozencell]

[quote]Just talk to someone who is liberal......they really dont know much about anything.[/quote]

Man, this thread is long! It's hard to pick up on a thread this in depth after a bunch of pages. It's very interesting, though.

I just thought the above quote was absolutely hilarious!!!!!

Anyhow, I don't know if someone already stated this (I haven't read the entire thread...), but I was Prot for about 20 yearrs. I met my wife and shortly became Catholic. It was just a matter of what made me feel closer to God and, in the end, really just made more sense theologically. I got to thinking about it for myself instead of swallowing what I grew up with without question and found that a lot of Prot stances seem to contradict each other.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Dec 31 2005, 11:02 PM']I dont see the logic here.. If you purposely turn from God (via mortal sin), and you reject his grace, how can you be saved?

God doesnt send people to hell, we send ourselves.  We choose hell over God.  So if one chooses sin over God, they are rejecting him, and choosing hell.

Its not all that complicated..
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:applause: