NO FORMAL SSPX SCHISM, says Cardinal!

[son_of_angels]

I always wonder, whatever Canon Law rules concerning the SSPX, and even if they were reconciled to Rome, why would one desire to attend the chapel of a society with such animosity towards the actions of our Roman Pontiff and Curia. Frankly, even if they were exiled, I should prefer to attend an indult Mass or a fairly traditional NO Mass over a place that may/may not be preaching obedience to Holy Mother Church.

[ruso]

The schism with the SSPX, him hurt more to Jonh Paul II that the bullets of Ali Agca. For that reason Benedicto XVI, first as cardinal and now as Pope tries to fix it.
Single Pope can order bishops, M. Lefebvre and the priests who he name bishops disobeyed and that entails excommunion. It does not have but that to speak.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 30 2005, 02:07 PM']thats interesting....

what exactly did they not like about Williamson?
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I think it was something about him erring towards Sedevacantism. I'm not sure what else, but I think that that is interesting.

[zunshynn]

Honestly. Who cares if you're formally in schism or not? If you're not completely with the Church, that's a bad place to be! I don't want to be in schism period, whether its formally declared or not.

[qfnol31]

Materially in schism is much better. It means no or lessened culpability.

Formal...well, you have a lot to answer for.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I highly Doubt Williamson is a sedevacantist.

[qfnol31]

Erring towards, not necessarily an adherent.

I wish I could talk to her about it, she knows much more than I. She's out of town right now, but I can ask soon.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

cool. Yes he may well be moving closer to that position. In his latest interview he called the the Vatican a new relegion.

he once said that no jews were killed in the gas chambers, protestants take their orders from the Devil, and the Vatican has sold its sould to liberalism.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 30 2005, 06:08 PM']cool. Yes he may well be moving closer to that position. In his latest interview he called the the Vatican a new relegion. [/quote]

That doesn't really surprise me, but it does fit in.

[quote]he once said that no jews were killed in the gas chambers,[/quote]

LoL! Must not have a liberal arts education.

[quote]protestants take their orders from the Devil,[/quote]

I sure hope not! I work for some. Just kidding...I should be nicer.

[quote]and the Vatican has sold its sould to liberalism.
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This I have seen come up often enough. Oh well.

I actually expected Modernism to be honest...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]ishop Williamson has frequently criticised The Sound of Music, arguing that far from constituting a wholesome family film, it is emblematic of the corrosion of Catholicism and Western culture in general. In a much-circulated letter of November 1997, he wrote: "The problem with The Sound of Music is that it is not just the innocent entertainment that it seems to be... all the elements of pornography are there, just waiting to break out... Dear friends, any supposed Catholicism in The Sound of Music is a Hollywood fraud corresponding to the real-life fraud of that "Catholicism" of the 1950's and 1960's, all appearance and no substance, which was just waiting to break out into Vatican II and the Newchurch. Right here is the mentality of sweet compassion for homosexuals and of bitter grief for Princess Di, of sympathy for priests quitting the SSPX for the Novus Ordo. Everything is man-centered and meant to feel good, the apostasy of our times." (Source).

Williamson proposed that in place of watching The Sound of Music at Christmas, Catholics play games, talk, and read. Although he does not absolutely condemn the viewing of television, his analysis of The Sound of Music leads him to condemn it as unsuitable viewing material.

[b]Williamson has used "Sound-of-Musicians" as a critical term for insufficiently traditional contemporary Catholics[/b][/quote]

[son_of_angels]

Well! It's good to see that in place of the Vatican's folly, the SSPX will provide all of us poor post-Vatican II Catholics a sober, wise, and circumspect look at today's culture.

Bishop Williamson for Pope!

[brendan1104]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Dec 30 2005, 10:06 AM']let the protestant believe what he wants...
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toledo_jesus what you have said is unexcusable. it is slander, and it is not permitted by both Phatmass' rules and the Code of Canon Law:

Canon 96: "By baptism one is incorporated into the Church of Christ and constituted a person in it..." - nobody except competent ecclesiastical authority could excommunicate me, which is what you've essentially done by calling me a protestant.

Phatmass Phorum Guidelines: Personal Attacks

"A post or comment... but is specifically meant to upset or criticize another person... This includes, but is not limited to, calling people "heretics" "

Protestantism is snyonymous with heresy, and protestant with heretic.
Catholic vs Catholic Debate

"A post or comment that results in doctrinal debates that might cause scandal among the faithful. "

I therefore request that you withdraw your statement, immediately.

Edited December 31, 2005 by brendan1104

[brendan1104]

Bishop Williamson has never denied what took place during the Holocaust. And the Sound of Music, the Bells of Saint Mary's all gave an unfair presentation of "perfect" or romanticized Catholicism.

[Cam42]

Since some people don't get it yet.....still after 19 years....

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html"]Apostolic Letter Ecclesia Dei of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II given Motu Proprio[/url]

Highlights:

[quote name='Ecclesia Dei #3']In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act....[/quote]

[quote name='Ecclesia Dei #4']The root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, "comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth".

But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magisterium of the Church possessed by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church.[/quote]

[i]Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 751.
Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1382.
Vatican Council II. Const. Dei Verbum, n. 8. Cf. Vatican Council I, Const. Dei Filius, cap. 4: DS 3020.
Cf. Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16; Vatican Council I, Const. Pastor Æternus, cap. 3: DS 3060.[/i]

Brendan1104, you are flat out wrong and this letter that you posted has been discussed before. I actually used it in a November discussion to show that the Church UPHOLDS the late pontiffs view.

Please stop attending the SSPX masses. The priests are excommunicated and in schism.

What does Card. Hoyos say? This:
[quote]HOYOS: It can cause distress, but at bottom I’m not surprised by the fact that words, articles, letters may appear that use a rather crude language. Including some statements attributed to His excellency Monsignor Fellay. [b]Until there is full unity[/b], and so full mutual charity, one can’t be scandalized if there is still some verbal intemperance. It’s always well to keep in mind Augustine’s saying: «In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas».[/quote]

Incidentally, Brendan1104, that letter that was posted by fidei defensor was written in response to a friend of mine, who is in Australia.

So, come with something new. Let's not rehash the same old tired skullduggery. Let's see if we can find a new way to attempt to legitimize the schism.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Dec 30 2005, 09:05 PM']Bishop Williamson has never denied what took place during the Holocaust. And the Sound of Music, the Bells of Saint Mary's all gave an unfair presentation of "perfect" or romanticized Catholicism.
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brendan i have a quote right here do you want to see it? also i DO have a problem with the sound of music.

i wouldn't call him anti-semetic because he Knows that hating Jews is not charity or love, but i do not doubt he hates the jewish relegion. He attacks the enemies of our Lord, but maybe he should do it in a more accurate way.

plus to be a protestant must one deny a dogma (ie. be a heretic) which Brendan is certainly Not.