And this all men call God

[rkwright]

thanks for all answers!

Jeff- Lemme see if I understand what you're saying... if 2 'gods' shared in some quality then they are not source, but rather whatever is in common between them is a singular God?

Also I might have to re-read the thread a few times, but I don't really see the problem in pap's thoughts? If God is defined as X,Y,Z with nature A, and the only difference in beings is in quality or nature, then god 1 would XYZA and god 2 would also be XYZA, but no differences = the same being :. God is one being? Is that the line of logic Pap?

Sem- i'm not sure its possible to have 2 beings with the same nature and same qualities? is this possible?

Myles- Thats a pretty straight foward easy answer!

Edited December 30, 2005 by rkwright

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Dec 29 2005, 06:26 PM']Also I might have to re-read the thread a few times, but I don't really see the problem in pap's thoughts?  If God is defined as X,Y,Z with nature A, and the only difference in beings is in quality or nature, then god 1 would XYZA and god 2 would also be XYZA, but no differences = the same being :. God is one being?  Is that the line of logic Pap? 
[/quote]
Yes that is what my line of thought boiled down to. I cannot speak for Myles, but I believe I was trying to operate on the same principle. Similar things have simialr qualities/attributes, the same thing has the same qualities, but for something to have [i]exactly [/i]the same attributes/qualities it must be the same thing...therefore the same being.

But I have been taken to task on a point or two on it so you might want to search elsewhere.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 30 2005, 12:41 AM']Yes that is what my line of thought boiled down to. I cannot speak for Myles, but I believe I was trying to operate on the same principle. Similar things have simialr qualities/attributes, the same thing has the same qualities, but for something to have [i]exactly [/i]the same attributes/qualities it must be the same thing...therefore the same being.

But I have been taken to task on a point or two on it so you might want to search elsewhere. 
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No need to be hesistant in posting in my name Paphy. I was posting in defence of your response since it seemed to me that not everyone was apprehending your meaning.

INXC
Myles

Edited December 30, 2005 by Myles

[Semalsia]

[quote name='rkwright']god 1 would XYZA and god 2 would also be XYZA, but no differences = the same being[/quote]

But let's say that these two things were rocks. If you were to finds two exactly identical rocks (unlikely), would you consider them to be the same rock? Even when holding them both in your hand, would you say you were holding only one rock? To say that would make no sense at all. Two things can't be the same thing (even if identical), if they are separate.

[quote name='rkwright']Sem- i'm not sure its possible to have 2 beings with the same nature and same qualities? is this possible?
[/quote]

The more complex the being, the more unlikely it becomes. Electrons are all identical; certainly no humans are. The thing with God is that it is quite a simple being, only having few qualities. Some might even say it only has one quality.


[quote name='Myles']If God is, for instance, infinite, which we accept He is how can there be two beings just like Him? Can you add a book to a bookshelf containing an infinite number of books? Of course not. There cannot be two Gods because they would subsumed into the same infinity etc.[/quote]

Infinity is a funny thing. If you can add infinite amount of books to a bookshelf, then it means that the bookshelf is infinite also. And it turns out that not only can you add a one more book to a infinite bookshelf that is already full, you can also add infinite amount of new books to that same bookshelf that already contains infinite amount of books. And you could still add infinite amount of those infinite books in there.

To say that god is infinite in no way makes it impossible for other infinite beings (gods) to exist.

Edited December 30, 2005 by Semalsia

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Infinity is a funny thing. If you can add infinite amount of books to a bookshelf, then it means that the bookshelf is infinite also. And it turns out that not only can you add a one more book to a infinite bookshelf that is already full, you can also add infinite amount of new books to that same bookshelf that already contains infinite amount of books. And you could still add infinite amount of those infinite books in there.

To say that god is infinite in no way makes it impossible for other infinite beings (gods) to exist. [/quote]

I'm afraid this is incorrect. Infinity by definition is all encompassing e.g. Infinity+1=Infinity, Infinity+100=Infinity, Infinity+1000=Infinity, Infinity x Infinity=Infinity. You cannot add to infinity because its not a numerical value and because the premises of your argument make the error of treating infinity as if it were a number your conclusion likewise is errenous. You cannot have a plurality of infinite beings.

INXC
Myles

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius']but for something to have exactly the same attributes/qualities it must be the same thing...therefore the same being. [/quote]

Then you would have to conclude that there is in fact only one water molecule in the whole of existence.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Myles' date='Dec 29 2005, 07:12 PM']No need to be hesistant in posting in my name Paphy. I was posting in defence of your response since it seemed to me that not everyone was apprehending your meaning.
[/quote]
Thank you . You put it far more coherently than I could have though! (and in fewer words. Hooray for brevity)

[quote]But let's say that these two things were rocks. If you were to finds two exactly identical rocks (unlikely), would you consider them to be the same rock? Even when holding them both in your hand, would you say you were holding only one rock? To say that would make no sense at all. Two things can't be the same thing (even if identical), if they are separate.
[/quote] 1) They occupy different space and therefore have some differing quality or attribute. 2) Dealing with a finite thing is different than dealing with a self-caused being because of what is necessary to be self-caused.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Dec 29 2005, 07:26 PM']Then you would have to conclude that there is in fact only one water molecule in the whole of existence.
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No...I would say there is only one water molecule that has exactly qualties or attributes X, Y, Z and the occupation of space A. Imagine if we were to put everything in the physical world on a grid, then the occupation of a specific tile on that grid could be considred and attribute or quality (I really need to decide on the word I want) and thus make water1 different from water2.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius']They occupy different space and therefore have some differing quality or attribute.[/quote]

1) Location is not a quality of the object.
2) God has no location, therefore gods can be identical even if location mattered.


[quote name='Myles']You cannot add to infinity [/quote]

Sure you can. You just did it yourself too. Infinity + 1 = infinity. That's adding to infinity! It doesn't get bigger in any meaningful sense, but there is always room to add some more to it.

[quote]premises of your argument make the error of treating infinity as if it were a number[/quote]

I didn't, but I think you did. By saying that two infinities are more than infinity.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Dec 29 2005, 07:15 PM']Electrons are all identical
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I haven't read the thread yet, I actually just read this one statement above and was already compelled to post.

Electrons are not all identical. (in an atom at least) According to the Pauli exclusion principle no two electrons have the same quantum numbers. They are distinct in their energy, to say nothing of the simple fact that they can be distinguished in their temporal and spatial existence. Photons too are all distinct in their energy, etc.

Quantum numbers = electron address (principle, azimuthal or secondary, magnetic or angular, magnetic spin). No two electrons are identical in their quantum numbers, compare them to snow flakes if you must.

Just a random comment.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 29 2005, 08:11 PM']I haven't read the thread yet, I actually just read this one statement above and was already compelled to post.

Electrons are not all identical. (in an atom at least) According to the Pauli exclusion principle no two electrons have the same quantum numbers. They are distinct in their energy, to say nothing of the simple fact that they can be distinguished in their temporal and spatial existence. Photons too are all distinct in their energy, etc.

Quantum numbers = electron address (principle, azimuthal or secondary, magnetic or angular, magnetic spin). No two electrons are identical in their quantum numbers, compare them to snow flakes if you must.

Just a random comment.
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a little something to substantiate my claims:

[quote]The Pauli exclusion principle is a quantum mechanical principle formulated by Wolfgang Pauli in 1925, which states that no two identical fermions may occupy the same quantum state simultaneously. It is one of the most important principles in physics, primarily because the three types of particle from which ordinary matter is made—electrons, protons, and neutrons—are all subject to it. The Pauli exclusion principle underlies many of the characteristic properties of matter, from the large-scale stability of matter to the existence of the periodic table of the elements.

Particles obeying the Pauli exclusion principle are called fermions. Apart from the familiar electron, proton and neutron, these include the neutrinos, the quarks (from which protons and neutrons are made), as well as some atoms like helium-3. All fermions possess "half-integer spin", meaning that they possess an intrinsic angular momentum whose value is  (Planck's constant divided by 2π) times a half-integer (1/2, 3/2, 5/2, etc.). In the theory of quantum mechanics, fermions are described by "antisymmetric states", which are explained in greater detail in the article on identical particles.

Particles that are not fermions can only be bosons, which are particles described using "symmetric states" in quantum theory. Bosons are allowed to share quantum states, and possess integer spin. Examples of bosons include the photon and the W and Z bosons.
[/quote]

So basically two electrons with the same spin cannot have the same coordinates and atoms are anti-symmetric. blah blah blah
We know this is true because matter is stable and electrons don't just collapse into the K shell (the lowest energy state).

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Sure you can. You just did it yourself too. Infinity + 1 = infinity. That's adding to infinity! It doesn't get bigger in any meaningful sense, but there is always room to add some more to it.[/quote]

That was precisely my point. Whatever is added to infinity becomes infinity. There cannot be pluarality in two beings possesing all the predicates of that which all men call God e.g. By way of their infinity they become a single and same infinity.

INXC
Myles

Edited December 30, 2005 by Myles

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Myles' date='Dec 29 2005, 08:36 PM']That was precisely my point. Whatever is added to infinity becomes infinity. There cannot be pluarality in two beings possesing all the predicates of that which all men call God.

INXC
Myles
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oh, is that what this debate is about.. I'm so rude..

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 30 2005, 02:36 AM']oh, is that what this debate is about.. I'm so rude.. 
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Well whose side are you on L_D?

INXC
Myles

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum']No two electrons are identical in their quantum numbers, compare them to snow flakes if you must[/quote]

If that is true, then fine. It doesn't really matter. God isn't made of quantums anyway. My main point is that there can be many beings that have the qualities required to be a god.