Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:58 PM']Again, he too makes a different statement than you, though I personally would like to add that I think that defending it as a right would be the heresy, not defending the act itself. 
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"Defending the act itself" would some how teach that abortion is ok and that is Heresy. Because in "defending" abortion some how one would have to say its ok this way or that way. If someone has an abortion that is heresy, if someone preforms a abortion that is heresy, if someone defends abortion that is heresy, if someone defends the act itself that is heresy, if someone defends the "right" of abortion that is heresy, if someone teaches that abortion is ok that is heresy.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 6 2006, 12:13 AM']Again, clarify.  You say abortion is heresy, I say (with the Church) no action in itself is heresy.

All these authors you quote say the [b]support[/b] of abortion is heresy, not the abortion in itself. 
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Abortion in itself... maybe I dont know if I really am sure enuff of what you mean to agree. sorry...

but "The abortion in itself" hum... now I am sure everyone whom partakes in this "the abortion" commits heresy.

[qfnol31]

Why is it true that anyone who has an abortion commits heresy?

They aren't teaching anything and are not obstinate in going against a teaching of the Church, necessarily. Remember that a heresy is teaching something that is against the dogma or doctrine of the Church, and an abortion in itself isn't necessarily such.

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 6 2006, 02:04 AM']John Martignoni a Apologetic Catholic of EWTN and www.biblechristiansociety.com agrees support for abortion is heresy.

[color=red]"Dear David,

Your question is the same as: Is murder heresy?  Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being.  It is murder.  It is opposed to the 5th Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."  It is a grievous sin.  [u]To teach that abortion is okay, would be a heresy.[/u]  Just like to teach murder was okay, or fornication was okay, [u]would be a heresy.[/u]  Advocating abortion is the same, in the Church's eyes, as advocating murder.  [u]Teaching that abortion is okay, is heresy.[/u]  [u]It is against the infallible teachings of the Church.[/u]  My personal opinion is that any politician (or anyone else) who supports abortion, is more than likely in a state of mortal sin and should not receive Communion.  And, politicians who openly support abortion in their policies and votes, should be openly denied Communion should they go up to receive.

God bless!

John Martignoni"
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Do you notice that he does not come out and say that those people are heretics? He says precisely what I have been saying. He says that they are in a state of mortal sin. AND he is not speaking for the Church, he is simply giving his personal opinion and states as much. The Church does not teach that abortion is a heresy, but rather that it is a mortal sin.

[Didacus]

Technically speaking, if sin = heresy, then everyone are heretics?

KoC, I simply cannot subscribe to your view. As it has been continuously pointed out in this thread, there is a distinct difference between being in a state of mortal sin and being a heretic.

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 6 2006, 02:07 AM']If they pro-choice Catholic teaches or supports a mothers choice to murder her baby that is heresy.
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Do you realize that you have changed your position.

[quote name='KnightofChrist @ Dec 27 2005' date=' 11:38 PM']If murdering millions of Children is not enuff to make one a Heretic I ask you all WHAT DOES???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

THink about it people!!!! STAND UP FOR THE UNBORNS RIGHTS not those that would kill them!!!! Millions opon millions of wittle babies are DEAD because of Pro-choice "catholics", why is The Church not allowed to rid Herself of this Cancer?[/quote]

[quote name='KnightofChrist @ Dec 28 2005' date=' 03:34 PM']I simply believe Heretics should not be allowed in Church and spread their cancer of evil. As for burning, what do you think they do with all thouse little babies they murder?[/quote]

Here you call the abortionists heretics. They are not and that is what the thrust of this argument is about.

[quote name='KnightofChrist @ Dec 30 2005' date=' 02:11 AM']Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.[/quote]

This is a totally different statement and it is totally erroneous. However, you are equating them as being the same thing. No way. Only one who acutally procures an abortion or offers substantial support (paying for it) is excommunicated, however this is not a charge of heresy.

That is why I say that they are at best incredulous. Speaking in theological terms, that is the proper terminology. Those who support (in priniciple) abortion are not heretics, they are incredulous.

Oh, Zach.....

[quote name='qfnol31 @ Today' date=' 01:49 AM'][quote name='Cam42 @ Jan 4 2006' date=' 03:14 PM']Funny isn't it, that he will discount my view, because I am not a priest, but we are to adhere to his......because he is what, zealous?[/quote]

Be nice, this is off topic and on the verge of ad hominem. (edit smiley)[/quote]

I was not being uncharitable nor was I engaging in a "almost" ad hominem. I was responding to his line of reasoning that my view cannot be accurate or trusted simply because I am not a priest. My theological training affords me the ability to make a sound and valid assertation of this topic. Incidentally, by his logic, you are not able to make an informed arugment either.

So, as we see, there is a shift in the argument. At first David is calling those who have abortions heretics, then he shifts and says that it is those who support abortion. Those are two totally different sets of circumstances and those are two totally different arugments. However, David wants to see them in the same light AND he equates them as being the same.

This statement sums up the corner that David has painted himself into.....

[quote name='KnightofChrist @ Today' date=' 02:33 AM']Abortion in itself... maybe I dont know if I really am sure enuff of what you mean to agree. sorry...

but "The abortion in itself" hum... now I am sure everyone whom partakes in this "the abortion" commits heresy.[/quote]

No, everyone who partakes in an abortion commits a mortal sin and is excommunicated per the internal forum. One does not commit a heresy by procurring an abortion, one commits a mortal sin. BIG DIFFERENCE. And not so subtle distinction.

And I am being accused of twisting things around.

[JP2Iloveyou]

KofC, you really need to reassess how the Church defines the terms, "heresy," "schism," "apostasy," "excommunication," and "mortal sin." These terms are NOT interchangeable. Furthermore, there are further distinctions within some of them as has been pointed out, for example formal and material heresy.

I cannot state enough how serious it is to call someone a heretic. The bishops are very reserved in using this term because of the seroiusness is carries canonicly. In fact, I can remember a lecture I went to in seminary where my rector basicly chewed us all out because we were throwing the term "heretic" around without knowing either what the term truly meant or what the ramifications of calling someone a heretic is. In fact, he said it could be a mortal sin to call someone a heretic.

Also, there is a distinct difference among a teaching, a doctrine, and a dogma. A "sinful and bad teaching" is not necessarily heresy. It very well could be, but even if it is, one must distinguish between formal and material heresy, which I don't have time to get into.

Heaven knows that abortion is wrong and a crime against humanity. People like Johnsonville brat Durbin make me sick to my stomach, but you are in way over your head here. Honestly, I'm in way over my head which is why I won't comment on it anymore.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 6 2006, 07:21 AM']Why is it true that anyone who has an abortion commits heresy?

They aren't teaching anything and are not obstinate in going against a teaching of the Church, necessarily.  Remember that a heresy is teaching something that is against the dogma or doctrine of the Church, and an abortion in itself isn't necessarily such.
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Because a baptized catholic that has an abortion pratakes in a practice contrary to the revealed truth of the Roman Catholic Church, The Right To Life.

Or is it your opinion "The Right to Life" is not a revealed truth?

[color=red]Heresy is more than just teaching something against Church Teaching.
1 a : adherence to a religious [u]opinion[/u] contrary to church dogma b : [u]denial of a revealed truth [/u]by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church c : [u]an opinion[/u] or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2 a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b : [u]an opinion[/u], doctrine, [u]or practice contrary to the truth[/u] or to generally accepted beliefs or standards [/color]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 6 2006, 08:01 AM']Do you notice that he does not come out and say that those people are heretics?  He says precisely what I have been saying.  He says that they are in a state of mortal sin.  AND he is not speaking for the Church, he is simply giving his personal opinion and states as much.  The Church does not teach that abortion is a heresy, but rather that it is a mortal sin.
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He does say the teach heresy. Something I believe you have said is not true. ANd if one teaches heresy what does that make him?

You are confused the only part he says is his personal opinion is [u]"My personal opinion is that any politician (or anyone else) who supports abortion, is more than likely in a state of mortal sin and should not receive Communion. And, politicians who openly support abortion in their policies and votes, should be openly denied Communion should they go up to receive."[/u] You are taking his words out of context.

The Church does teach that support for abortion is heresy, teaching abortion is ok is heresy, having a opinion on abortion contrary to church teaching is heresy, dissenting or deviation from a reavealed truth (The Right to Life) by having or paying for or prefroming an abortion would be heresy. And yes it is also mortal sin

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 6 2006, 08:35 AM']1.  Do you realize that you have changed your position.

2.  Here you call the abortionists heretics.  They are not and that is what the thrust of this argument is about.

3.  This is a totally different statement and it is totally erroneous.  However, you are equating them as being the same thing.  No way.  Only one who acutally procures an abortion or offers substantial support (paying for it) is excommunicated, however this is not a charge of heresy.

4.  That is why I say that they are at best incredulous.  Speaking in theological terms, that is the proper terminology.  Those who support (in priniciple) abortion are not heretics, they are incredulous.

5.  I was not being uncharitable nor was I engaging in a "almost" ad hominem.  I was responding to his line of reasoning that my view cannot be accurate or trusted simply because I am not a priest.  My theological training affords me the ability to make a sound and valid assertation of this topic.  Incidentally, by his logic, you are not able to make an informed arugment either.

6.  So, as we see, there is a shift in the argument.  At first David is calling those who have abortions heretics, then he shifts and says that it is those who support abortion.  Those are two totally different sets of circumstances and those are two totally different arugments.  However, David wants to see them in the same light AND he equates them as being the same.

7.  This statement sums up the corner that David has painted himself into.....
No, everyone who partakes in an abortion commits a mortal sin and is excommunicated per the internal forum.  One does not commit a heresy by procurring an abortion, one commits a mortal sin. BIG DIFFERENCE.  And not so subtle distinction.

And I am being accused of twisting things around.
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1. No Sir. My position has not changed. I believe you do not understand me.

2. All abortionists do commint heresy. You may say it till you are blue in the face "Abortionists do not commint heresy" but they do indeed.

3. My statement was not erroneous, and it was not "totally different". Yes way! One who acutally procures an abortion, offers substantial support (paying or gives funding for it), or supports abortion commints heresy and is excommunicated.

4. "At best incredulous" however in real life it is heresy. In theological terms, incredulous is what you believe is proper terminology. However incredulous it is not, it is Heresy. Those who support in anyway abortion commint heresy, so they would have to be heretics.

5. I did not say you could not make an informed arugment. I did not say you could not be trusted and I did not say you "can not be accurate". I said you are not a Priest, and I do not believe you. I believe Father Corapi, I do not believe you. And I still do not believe you its not because you are not a priest it is because you are wrong. qfnol31 please forgive me Cam does not speak for me, by my logic, you are able to make an informed arugment just as he can. However if I believe you to be wrong I will point it out.

6. There is no shift in argument. You told me support was not heresy. So I wrote letters to those I've posted, asking if it was heresy. You seem to like to use my real name. I would like to know your real name, please. If you will not give me yours please stop using mine, that would be rude. I still say those who have abortions do commint heresy. I have always said those who support abortion commint heresy. No matter how much you want them to be in "two totally different arugments", does not make it so. Yes Sir they are in the "same light", heresy if you can call it "light".

7. No this statement only "sums up" that I was trying to fully understand what qfnol31 was trying to explain to me and what I've always said those who support abortion, teach that abortion is ok, or have or perform an abortion commint heresy. And it is heresy not just mortal sin.

[Akalyte]

as my priest says "there's too much of a liberal influence on the church today". Many catholics today dont even act like the Catholics of old. The warrior saints who werent affraid to call evil evil and good good. It seems like now a days there's giant debates over things that deserve to be marked and condemned. Abortion is obviously evil, how hard is it to see that?

I know of priests who told their whole congregations that it was ok to vote pro-choice.

Edited January 7, 2006 by Akalyte

[Akalyte]

Abortion and Excommunication
May 20, 2004

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon Law and Church Teaching

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” literally means a ‘broad sentence’ or ‘wide judgment,’ in other words, a sentence or judgment which is applied widely. In this context, it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: “Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.”

Obtaining an Abortion

Any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly obtains a procured abortion commits a mortal sin and is also automatically excommunicated, under canon 1398.

Under the laws of secular society, if one person commits a crime, then anyone who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for that person to commit that crime is called an accessory to that crime and is also subject to the penalties of law. Similarly, any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for any woman to procure an abortion also commits a mortal sin and also incurs the same sentence of excommunication.

Any Catholic who substantially assists another in the deliberate sin of abortion is also guilty of serious sin and also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Believing in Abortion

Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral commits the sin of heresy. The sin of heresy also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Unfortunately, some Catholics obstinately deny that abortion is always immoral, and some Catholics claim that abortion can, at times, be a morally-acceptable choice, and some Catholics claim that a person can, in good conscience, choose abortion. Under the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church, canons 751 and 1364, all such Catholics are automatically excommunicated for the sin of heresy.

This sentence of latae sententiae excommunication applies to any Catholic who denies that abortion is gravely immoral, regardless of whether they keep this denial hidden or publicly reveal it.

Promoting Abortion

Those Catholics who publicly announce their denial that abortion is always gravely immoral, or who publicly promote abortion, or who publicly argue in favor of legalized abortion, also commit a mortal sin and also incur a sentence of automatic excommunication.

This sentence of excommunication applies to Catholics who are politicians, as well as to those Catholics who are political commentators, or public speakers, or who write or otherwise publicly communicate their erroneous view that abortion can be morally-acceptable or that abortion should be legal. This sentence of excommunication also certainly applies to those Catholics who claim to be theologians or Biblical scholars, but who believe or teach that abortion is not always gravely immoral.

Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).

Voting for Abortion

Any Catholic politician who casts a vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion, commits a mortal sin.

When such a vote indicates that the Catholic politician believes that abortion is not always gravely immoral, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canons 751 and 1364, because of heresy.

When such a vote is intended to have the effect of making abortion legal, or more easily obtainable, or more widely available, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canon 1398, as someone who is attempting to provide substantial or essential means for women to obtain abortions. Catholic politicians who pass laws which legalize, protect, or widen access to abortion, are providing essential assistance to women who want to obtain abortions.

It is not sufficient for Catholic politicians to claim that they are “personally opposed” to abortion. If any Catholic politician favors legalized abortion, despite a claim of personal opposition, such a politician commits a mortal sin by promoting abortion and by voting in favor of abortion.

The same is true for any Catholic who casts any vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion. Such a voter commits a mortal sin and incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication for two reasons. First, they are committing the sin of heresy by believing that abortion should be legal and available. Second, they are committing the grievous sin of providing women with substantial or essential assistance in obtaining abortions, by attempting to legalize or broaden access to abortion.

However, if, for a period of time, Catholic politicians and voters are unable to enact a law prohibiting all abortion, then Catholic politicians and voters may in good conscience vote for whichever law offers the greatest restrictions and limits on abortion. Subsequently, Catholic politicians and voters are required by the moral law to continue to enact further restrictions and limits on abortion, to the greatest extent possible, and, at every possible opportunity, to vote for laws which completely outlaw abortion.

Voting for Politicians

In general, the moral law requires Catholic voters to vote for those candidates who oppose abortion over those who favor abortion. However, there are exceptions to this general principle. For example, if a political candidate favors abortion, but is a member of a party which generally opposes abortion, a Catholic voter may, in good conscience, vote for that candidate, with the intention of giving more political power to the party which opposes abortion.

In another case, a Catholic voter might, in good conscience, vote for a pro-abortion candidate, if the political office would offer no opportunity for the elected candidate to vote for or against abortion. Even so, every Catholic voter should consider that anyone who supports abortion, as if it were a woman’s right, or as if it could ever be a moral choice, must necessarily be someone who has a seriously limited understanding of morality and justice. Such a person would not often be the better candidate for any office in place of one who understands that abortion is gravely immoral.

In every case, a Catholic should vote in such a way as to obtain as many restrictions on abortion as possible, and so as to obtain the end to legalized abortion as soon as possible.

Constitutional Amendment

Within any constitutional form of government, it would be ideal to have a constitutional clause or amendment which permanently and completely outlaws all procured abortions. Such an amendment must ban all abortions, regardless of circumstance, so that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent prenatal human being will be always contrary to human law, just as it is always contrary to the moral law.

A constitutional amendment can permit certain medical procedures, which are absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother, and which indirectly result in the unintended and unsought death of the prenatal, only if there is no possible way to save the life of the prenatal. A prenatal is defined as any human being from conception to birth. Every reasonable effort should be made to save the lives of both mother and prenatal. If the life of the prenatal can be saved by no other possible option than by risking or allowing the death of the mother, then the prenatal must be saved.

Catholic teaching clearly allows for certain medical procedures, which indirectly and involuntarily result in the death of the prenatal, to save the life of the mother, but only when all options to save the life of the prenatal have been exhausted. Such a procedure is not an abortion and is not an exception wherein abortion is allowed.

On the other hand, a constitutional amendment which bans abortion with exceptions for various cases, such as rape, incest, or a risk to the mother’s life, would be worse than having no such amendment at all.

Any woman who is willing to commit the sin of abortion, would also be willing to lie. If a constitutional amendment permitted abortion in cases of rape, then any woman willing to lie and to falsely claim that she was raped, would be able to also claim that she had a constitutional right to an abortion. The result would be that a constitutional amendment, which seems to ban abortion with some exceptions, would end up giving every woman who is willing to tell a lie, a purported constitutional right to abortion. This situation would be worse than having no such constitutional amendment at all.

Therefore, the only acceptable pro-life constitutional amendment would be one that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, bans all procured abortions without exception.

[Akalyte]

common sense: In order for one to be exxcomunicated heresy must be comiitted, those who procure abortions automatically exxcomunicate themselves. That means they comitted heresy.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 7 2006, 12:27 AM']Because a baptized catholic that has an abortion pratakes in a practice contrary to the revealed truth of the Roman Catholic Church, The Right To Life. 

Or is it your opinion "The Right to Life" is not a revealed truth?

[color=red]Heresy is more than just teaching something against Church Teaching.
1 a : adherence to a religious [u]opinion[/u] contrary to church dogma b : [u]denial of a revealed truth [/u]by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church c : [u]an opinion[/u] or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2 a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b : [u]an opinion[/u], doctrine, [u]or practice contrary to the truth[/u] or to generally accepted beliefs or standards [/color]
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That is a dictionary definition, not a Catholic definition.

Plus, right to life cannot be a revealed truth, and I'll give reasons why.

1) It would be most obviously found in Natural Law and it is not necessary in the Divine Law.
2) People can give up this "right to life," meaning if they commit a very grave crime, the state is allowed to execute them.
3) In a war it is not unjust to kill your enemy.

Now as for an abortion, procurring an abortion cannot make you a heretic, if you understand material versus formal cooperation in heresy. Most people who have an abortion would fall under the material realm anyways.

And lastly, as the Church teaches, no action in itself is heresy. People who have an abortion cannot be heretics just because they have something against what taught to be an evil act.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Akalyte' date='Jan 7 2006, 10:31 AM']common sense: In order for one to be exxcomunicated heresy must be comiitted, those who procure abortions automatically exxcomunicate themselves. That means they comitted heresy.
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Actually you can be executed for two other things too.

One is disobedience, which doesn't mean you're a heretic. I also made the distinction between material and formal heresy, which in implied in that article. I can't say Archbishop Levebvre was a heretic, and no one I know ever has. He was very much excommunicated though, wouldn't you agree?

Also, a person who has an abortion doesn't necessarily support it. Have you ever seen [i]Minority Report[/i]? There are people in there who don't support murder but commit it anyways. Obviously they are committing an intrinsically evil act, but that does not mean they are heretics. I'd like to bring this distinction into this discussion.

Lastly, that article that you posted actually says that heresy is committed by those who deny the grave immorality of abortion obstinately against what the Church teaches, not anything about those who have an abortion, about which it says they commit a mortal sin. (Because of that statement I do question somewhat the approach he takes in this because it sounds like he believes in intrinsically sinful acts, which is a more modern, and in my opinion dangerous way, to look at actions. Traditional teaching says intrinsically evil, never intrinsically sinful.)