Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[Cam42]

[quote]KnightofChrist - Yet you use a un-"ratifed" news report to back your opinion with a un-named Vatican official calling this man who hides in shadows "Reputable and Accurate." And I use a Bishop who has the gutts to give his name.[/quote]

Why does the Vatican official not give his name? Because in the realm of national politics, the Church should not and does not make specific judgments. Notice the language that Basil Cole, OP uses in the article that I posted.

[quote]KnightofChrist - You pick one word out of the letter and you think it supports your opinion? No. No it does not. Twisting his words is what you are doing. [/quote]

Again, I am not twisting anything. I am simply following what the Church teaches. I have PROVEN through documentation and your own evidence that my view is correct.

[quote]If these quotes are not enuff confirmation for you, you have no idea what confirmation is.[/quote]

You are the only person on the planet that takes this as confirmed truth. It is not. Even Bishop Gracida, the author doesn't make that claim. He understands that this is private opinion and well outside the scope of Magisterial thought, at this time. What he hopes for is that this article might be taken seriously, but EVEN HE CALLS THIS ARTICLE A PROPOSITION. Show me where in the article he calls any of this a confirmation.

[quote]KnightofChrist - It is only your view and opinion that the Bishop has a different view than of that of the Magisterium. Are you really questioning the Teaching of the Bishop do you really think he does not know Canon law better than you? [/quote]

Actually, it is also the view of Bishop Gracida that this is only opinion. Notice the quote from your article that I posted. It is not only my view. It is also the view of the Vatican and her officials.

[quote]The Bishop is not changing anything you are.[/quote]

Ummm.....actually the bishop, by his own admission is trying to change things. Didn't you read this article? He is proposing a change in thought. Notice the quote I provided from your article.

[quote]KnightofChrist - The only one in the realm of opinion is you and you are not a Bishop, He is, you are not. I believe the Bishop I do not believe you.[/quote]

That is admittedly untrue, by Bishop Gracida.

[quote]KnightofChrist - The Bishop has given you the tangible proof yet you've trash it!

The Bishop knows better than you, give it up man stop trying to change the view a of the Magisterium.[/quote]

Where in the article has Bishop Gracida called any of this proof? Where in the article does Bishop Gracida confirm this as objective truth? The answer nowhere. While I have a lot of respect for Bishop Gracida and have even met him once (at the USCCB meetings in DC, 1999), I can assure you that this is simply his private opinion. Is it something that he would like to see ratified? You bet. Is it? Absolutely not. It is his private opinion. He considers this to be a proposition. You are intentionally misrepresnting his position and at this point you are doing more harm than good, through unfettered ignorance and wanton omisson of the facts.

Please go back and re-read your posts. Most notably the articles I have used to disprove your position. Your zealousness has overridden your objectiveness. That is a constant error that all Catholics must guard against.

The Church is clear about (and I accept fully) what abortion is. A mortal sin. It is not heresy. It does not fit the criteria. That is why Bishop Gracida's 12 step program has not been ratified.

Incidentally, my article doesn't have to be ratified. It is a position, it is the position of the Vatican. I will take that view over the private opinion of one particular bishop who is making a proposition, until such time as that opinion is ratified and accepted by the Church at large.

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 5 2006, 01:44 AM']I catch hell for my "rants" and maybe rightfully so... if I have ranted it does not make The Bishop wrong, yet Cam acuses a Bishop of trying to change the overall view of the Magisterium and that is not notice.
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I am accusing him of nothing. I am simply restating what he is stating in the article. He is making a proposition. To whom is he making the proposition? He is making the proposition to the USCCB, with the hope that it will be accpeted by Rome. It is not twisting of anything. If anything, you are reading more into the article than what is truly there.

Again, for the sake of the board:
[quote name='Bishop Rene Gracida'][b][u]The [i]proposed schema[/i] is unambiguous.[/u][/b] The continuing scandal of Catholics publicly bearing false witness to the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ has not just become collusion in genocide, but indeed now a grave undermining of the authentic Deposit of Faith and Morals.[/quote]
(emphasis mine)

If it were ratified, it would be promulgated by Rome. As it is, your article is only a proposed schema. Should it be taken seriously? Sure. Why not. But that is not for me to accept as Magisterial truth. It is for me to recognize as private opinion until such time it is ratified and taught by the Magisterial authority as universal truth.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 27 2005, 10:38 PM']please you all should know there is no difference in "teaching" and Dogma.  Public Pro-Choice "catholics" deine that the child in the womb is a Child, they deine the Soul of that Child in doing so deine God. This makes them if you see it or not a Heretic.[/quote]

Actually there are plenty. Dogma is defined in the area of faith (maybe it could be morals, but there isn't any).

Just as the one Priest, who happens to be wrong in so much morals, said, "there is no defined infallible teaching on morals in the Catholic Church" (Fr. Curran). He was right, unfortunately for him, he thinks that's the only case.

Abortion is infallibly taught as an evil thing, which is very much true. However, the infallibility, which though it comes from the Ordinary Universal Episcopal Magisterium, also falls back on the Natural Law.

Abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent person, which is murder. It's just worse in this case because of the innocence and other factors. By Natural Law alone we know it is wrong, and so this is not necessarily a deposit of the Faith. Faith does complement this teaching, however.

Now back to what I was saying before...dogma is defined and this sure is not. That does not mean it is not wrong or fallible...it is very right and very infallible. There is a distinction between teaching and dogma. To deny that is to deny so much of our wonderous Church and to fall into a trap way too many modern Catholics, even those on here, do as well.

[quote]How many babies will it take for people  to stand up and rid Mother Church of this Cancer... Heretics should not be allowed to be called Catholic when their anti-christian beliefs go agaist every teaching of The Holy Catholic Church!  We must stop being "nice" to those that SLAUTER MILLIONS OF OUR CHILDREN!!!! [/quote]

I agree that we should stop this heinous act. Now let me ask you a question, have you done all you can to stop it? Are you out at the centers praying and counseling every day? Do you know of anyone who is? Not really, so we too have room to grow.

I mention this because that is one way we have to look at these people, as uneducated. Many are ignorant. I know a few people that were involved in abortions and have sense learned the truth...they were lied to and deceived, as so many are. Many of these people are uneducated, though that is not the case with all.

In heresy, a criteria is to be educated. When we let them all know they are wrong, then they're more culpable, but even then they're not necessarily heretics. An uneducated heretic is materially a heretical, not formally, meaning they are not as culpable as you assume when you say you want them kicked out of the Church. Only if a person is culpable can they be kicked out.

[quote]If murdering millions of Children is not enuff to make one a Heretic I ask you all WHAT DOES???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  [/quote]

Murder doesn't make a heretic, but it does lean towards mortal sin which is at least as bad, and maybe worse depending on culpability. Please do keep in mind these small distinctions as I think they will help you best understand this.

[quote]THink about it people!!!!  STAND UP FOR THE UNBORNS RIGHTS not those that would kill them!!!!  Millions opon millions of wittle babies are DEAD because of Pro-choice "catholics", why is The Church not allowed to rid Herself of this Cancer?
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Oh, I do, all the time. More before college when I had the time, but I do. And the dignity of all who live.

By the way, you give the Catholics too much credit where it isn't due. The pro-choice Catholics are somewhat responsible, but no completely.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 27 2005, 10:42 PM']her·e·tic (hĕr'ĭ-tĭk) pronunciation
n.

A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma (or teaching) of the Roman Catholic Church.
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It's not dogma, as I hope you see. You fall into a trap of the liberals and schismatics as well not to distinguish, which I assure you leads towards heresy in itself.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 28 2005, 01:13 PM']Again how many Children will die, before this "last resort" of yours is used?  You think, that murdering close to 50 million unborn would call for such a "last resort" so I ask you how many will it take for you? Billions?  Billions opon Billions?  [/quote]

[quote name='Evangelium Vitae']The 1917 Code of Canon Law punished abortion with excommunication. 69 The revised canonical legislation continues this tradition when it decrees that "a person who actually procures an abortion incurs automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication".70 The excommu- nication affects all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached, and thus includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed. 71 By this reiterated sanction, the Church makes clear that abortion is a most serious and dangerous crime, thereby encouraging those who commit it to seek without delay the path of conversion. In the Church the purpose of the penalty of excommunication is to make an individual fully aware of the gravity of a certain sin and then to foster genuine conversion and repentance.[/quote]

[quote name='Cardinal Ratzinger']1. Presenting oneself to receive Holy Communion should be a conscious decision, based on a reasoned judgement regarding one’s worthiness to do so, according to the Church’s objective criteria, asking such questions as: “Am I in full communion with the Catholic Church? Am I guilty of grave sin? Have I incurred a penalty (e.g. excommunication, interdict) that forbids me to receive Holy Communion? [...] The practice of indiscriminately presenting oneself to receive Holy Communion, merely as a consequence of being present at Mass, is an abuse that must be corrected (cf. Instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” nos. 81, 83).

2. [b]The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorise or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. [...] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propoganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’” [/b](no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. [...] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74). [/quote]

(Emphasis mine own)

They are committing a grave evil according to this, but only those who actually procur the abortion are excommunicated. We need to keep that straight. However, you are right, they should be denied Holy Communion.

But keep in mind, this is for their sake, not ours.

[quote]I believe that indeed Bishops do fear the press or men more than God, if the Bishops stood up agaist people like Kenndy and Kerry and Excommunicated them the press would raise hell!  I believe the Bishops fear this alot, and there-for do nothing to stop these Pro-Death "catholics".  If the Bishops do Excommunicate an public individual then later the individual truly repents they can be let back in full to Holy Mother Church. 
No it is the Priest' and Bishops decision to allow an excommunicated heretic communion.[/quote]

They can deny these people Holy Communion but they cannot necessarily excommunicate them, and if you read me through I will explain more in a moment.

[quote]I dont understand if you saw... say John Kerry go into a room filled with babies and blow them all away, and not just once but everyday for 30 sum years since 1973 and then He says it was his choice or the people that put him in office told him to do that and the Church has no say in the matter because his public and private life are completly different.  [/quote]

You don't excommunicate murderers, you punish them. Technically speaking though, he would have incurred latae sententiae excommunication upon himself by doing this act you just mentioned (if it's abortion) for that is the punishment. Hopefully civil law will punish as well.

[quote]Would you then invite him over for supper and eat with him?  Would you let him in your house?  As for now YOU DO!  And in the house of GOD at Mass of all places!!!!!  SHAME!!!! SHAME!!!  Shame on you all that do not have the Gutts to fight evil!
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We all fight evil in different ways. As has been mentioned, you want to fight evil in a way that is not your own. What have you done to educate the man? Are you sure he is? I don't think so, but if you are, I'm impressed...you had ought to take it to the Bishop, and I'm serious! That is how heresy is tried, in front of a tribunal, and for good reason.

[KnightofChrist]

Dan Lacey of FaithMouse.com believes support of abortion to be heresy

"[color=red]Thanks for the question, David.
[u]
Support for abortion is most certainly heresy. [/u] Heresy is refutation or denial of an essential point of faith. The Magisterium as I understand it is simply the living church, which I suppose can be said to be the the total of current authority, which embodies the tradition of the church. I know that there were bulls by certain Popes against abortion in the past, and more recently (in the past fifty years) there's been a series of writings from Papal authority specifically condemning abortion. There isn't any need to declare abortion specifically as being heretical (although that might already be true, sorry I don't know the answer to that question) ...it just is.

I've discovered a very good site recently by a Catholic clinical laboratory tech in molecular biology - [url="http://www.marymeetsdolly.com"]http://www.marymeetsdolly.com[/url] Under 'Catholic Teaching' on her site she has a list of relevant writings on the subject of abortion and links back to the original documents on the Vatican site. You may also be interested in this page at New Advent on abortion- [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm[/url]

Your question is an excellent one. Would you mind if I posted it on my site?

God bless!
Dan"[/color]

[qfnol31]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 30 2005, 01:11 AM']Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”[/quote]

[quote name='Canon Law']Can. 316 §1. A person who has publicly rejected the Catholic faith, has defected from ecclesiastical communion, or has been punished by an imposed or declared excommunication cannot be received validly into public associations.[/quote]

If you see here, there are three ways that a person can err, and there is a distinction between heretics and those that are excommunicated, which is something you place together.

Not necessarily does one imply the other.

[quote]Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” [/quote]

I've been wondering what an apostate is according to the Canon, thank you!

As for the rest, abortion in itself is not against the faith because it is an action, not a belief. Again, this must be considered.

[quote]Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.” [/quote]

Yes, they do, but they are not the only ones who do as well.

[quote]The phrase “latae sententiae” literally means a ‘broad sentence’ or ‘wide judgment,’ in other words, a sentence or judgment which is applied widely. In this context, it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. [color=red]Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the particular judgment of a case by competent authority. [/color][/quote]

This is correct, but as I said before, the excommunication does not necessarily imply heresy.

[quote]Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)
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It does specifically state,

[quote]2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. [/quote]

Of course, as I've said a few times, it's a grave offense, not heresy, just as murder is a grave offense and not heresy.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jan 4 2006, 02:24 PM']KnightofChrist,

You say "excommunicate them", but to what end?

If you want to excommunicate people who support abortion because you want to kick them out of the Church, you have grossly misunderstood the nature and purpose of excommunication. The Church doesn't use excommunication to kick out everyone who is not good enough. It is a disciplinary procedure intended to help bring people back into the heart of the Church.

Abortion is a great evil. No one here is denying that, but there is a lot more that goes into a declaration of heresy and an excommunication. It is for the bishops and the hierarchy to decide to excommunicate someone or declare them to be a heretic. It is not your place.[/quote]

Technically, as I said before, those we [...] speak of excommunicate themselves.

However, you are right in saying that it is for the hierarchy to declare formal heretics.

[quote]Stand up for truth; demonstrate to people why abortion is wrong; and above all pray for an end to abortion; but do not presume to proclaim yourself the judge and jury for those in error or the bishops appointed by God to care for them. The bishops decide how to deal with the situation, not you. If you disagree with how it is being handled, take it up with the bishops, not in a public forum.
BTW, great job Cam.
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I do believe this is a good place to figure out if it's right or not, and I have a feeling KnightofChrist still wonders somewhat, otherwise he would have written his Bishop already.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 02:58 PM']I say they are already excommunicated, and Church Law has made it so.  And this is to an end to stop others from being lead to hell, by Pro-Choice Lawmakers.  Indeed I have not "grossly misunderstood the nature and purpose of excommunication."  If you can not see the need for disciplinary procedure of excommunication for those that Murder Millions then something is wrong.[/quote]

Excommunication has two extra steps not necessary if one just denies them Holy Communion. It requires the Bishop on both ends if latae sentitiae excommunication has not happened.

[quote]Pro-Choice Lawmakers, have by their actions commented The Abortion Heresy and automatically excommunicated themselfs under Canon Law.  I know it is not my place, you misunderstand me.[/quote]

I am not sure that lawmakers have, as I have not actually seen that in Canon Law. I believe, from my limited reading, that it only mentions those who incur the abortion themselves.

[quote]And I want pray with everything part of my heart for people like Ted Kennedy to repent and believe in the Right to Life.  However it has been 30 some years since 1973.  And little has been done to rebuke Catholics like him, to others in the faith who may not know alot about abortion, they may think since Kennedy can call himself Catholic and appear in good standing with the Church the person may think "its ok to support abortion and still be Catholic, Kennedy can do it why not me?!"[/quote]

Maybe it is true we should do more...unfortunately many Catholics support these candidates. I do think they should be denied Holy Communion, but excommunication isn't necessary, in my opinion, at least not right now. I mean we haven't denied them Holy Communion yet, have we? If we had, then we could discuss further methods.

[quote]I stand up for Truth.  I have shown to many people why abortion is evil, I pray for the unborn every moment that I remember abortion is evil.  [/quote]

We do agree here that abortion is evil.

[quote]The Bishops I fear will not deicide to deal with this situation in a timely manner, just as they did with the sex abuse situation.  I have indeed taken it up with The Untied States Bishops.  ANd this is the United States I have very right pulbically voice my opinion about the Bishops.
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Have you written yours by any chance?

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 4 2006, 03:14 PM']Funny isn't it, that he will discount my view, because I am not a priest, but we are to adhere to his......because he is what, zealous?
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Be nice, this is off topic and on the verge of ad hominem.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 03:16 PM']Well Cam you seem dead set on not seeing the Abortion Heresy, or The Abortion Holocaust.

What great disciplinary action should be or could be taken against Pro-Choice Catholic Lawmakers?  You do at least believe the Pro-Choice Catholics can lead many others away from truth do you not?  And should not some great disciplinary action be taken?  Or not?
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I think we all think some disciplinary action (and even great disciplinary action) should be taken, but we haven't even begun yet. We can't jump to the end without trying what's in the middle.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 11:12 PM']A Bishop agrees Support of Abortion is Heresy...  : are you now just as quiafied as a Bishop as you are a Priest?  I never thought all Bishops feared men more than God...  I can't really say if any really do but this is one who DOES NOT with out doubt![/quote]

I do hope this gives you more confidence in the Bishops than you had before.

Oh, and careful with the tongue, it's sometimes taken as an offense in here. :

[quote]Critically, now, without doubt, the integrity of the Christian Faith is under attack not just from without, but worse, from within the Church. [b]It is under attack by Catholic politicians who publicly and obstinately support what in all truth is [u]nothing less than Heresy[/u]. By [u]heresy[/u] I mean an[u] obstinate denial[/u] or doubt of a core, non-negotiable dogma of the Faith proposed by the Magisterium as revealed doctrine, as set forth in Canon 751 of the Code of Canon Law of 1983 and amended in 1998.[/b] In my recently published essay, “The Arian Heresy Revisited,” I tried to show that the heresy of the Fourth Century which denied the divinity of Christ, is the mirror-image of our modern heresy which denies the sanctity of the human person redeemed by His Incarnation, Passion, Death and Resurrection.[/quote]

He actually said something slightly different than you, I think. I shall show this in a second. Here is where I get back to what I said I would.

[quote][b][u]Heresy is indeed committed[/u] by supporting either the moral rectitude of abortion as a “human right,” or absent that, professing merely the “civil right to abortion.”[/b] Both of these errors are so diametrically opposed to the demands of Christian witness that to obstinately adhere to them [/U][b]automatically[/b] cuts one off from any hope of salvation. [b]Any one Catholic who supports these [u]two heresies[/u] risks eternal damnation.[/b] I say this to all who have fallen into this error with all the voice of reason and clarity possible, with the full and earnest hope of their swift return to the One Body of Christ.
[/color][/quote]

This is talking about abortion as a human right, not abortion in itself. It is completely different to say it is a good thing and another to say it is a "human right." Do you see why this is?

To have a car is a good thing. I do not have a right to a car. One is a much stronger statement than the other.

[quote][color=red][b]Any public and obstinate support, by word or by vote, of either abortion, or absent that, “only” the civil “right-to-choose abortion” qualifies as heresy.[/b][/color] To be “personally opposed to abortion” is not a defense to supporting a “right to choose murder.” The propositions 1) “Abortion is not intrinsically evil” and 2) One has a “civil” or “human” right to choose abortion are both in reason, and by Divine Law, two specifically distinct heresies. A pro-choice Catholic politician may get away with not committing the one, but he certainly falls into the pit of committing the other.[/quote]

Civil right to abortion is again different than just standing up for abortion and even more so than the act itself.

An action is never heresy. Defending an action isn't heresy.

Defending the right to that action, now that can possibly be counted amongst heresy.

I've honestly deleted most of that, but it talks about education, which must come before a person can be a formal heretic anyways.

That's why most Protestants are not formal heretics (though all are probably material heretics). Id est, they are not culpable.

I hope this brings some clarification and fruitful dialogue here.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 6 2006, 12:49 AM']Dan Lacey of FaithMouse.com believes support of abortion to be heresy

"[color=red]Thanks for the question, David.
[u]
Support for abortion is most certainly heresy. [/u] Heresy is refutation or denial of an essential point of faith.  The Magisterium as I understand it is simply the living church, which I suppose can be said to be the the total of current authority, which embodies the tradition of the church.  I know that there were bulls by certain Popes against abortion in the past, and more recently (in the past fifty years) there's been a series of writings from Papal authority specifically condemning abortion.  There isn't any need to declare abortion specifically as being heretical (although that might already be true, sorry I don't know the answer to that question) ...it just is.

I've discovered a very good site recently by a Catholic clinical laboratory tech in molecular biology - [url="http://www.marymeetsdolly.com"]http://www.marymeetsdolly.com[/url]  Under 'Catholic Teaching' on her site she has a list of relevant writings on the subject of abortion and links back to the original documents on the Vatican site.  You may also be interested in this page at New Advent on abortion- [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm[/url]

Your question is an excellent one.  Would you mind if I posted it on my site?

God bless!
Dan"[/color]
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Again, he too makes a different statement than you, though I personally would like to add that I think that defending it as a right would be the heresy, not defending the act itself.

[qfnol31]

Oh, and techinically pro-choice Catholics are normally against abortion but let the mother decide. Different from pro-abortion.

[KnightofChrist]

John Martignoni a Apologetic Catholic of EWTN and www.biblechristiansociety.com agrees support for abortion is heresy.

[color=red]"Dear David,

Your question is the same as: Is murder heresy? Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being. It is murder. It is opposed to the 5th Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." It is a grievous sin. [u]To teach that abortion is okay, would be a heresy.[/u] Just like to teach murder was okay, or fornication was okay, [u]would be a heresy.[/u] Advocating abortion is the same, in the Church's eyes, as advocating murder. [u]Teaching that abortion is okay, is heresy.[/u] [u]It is against the infallible teachings of the Church.[/u] My personal opinion is that any politician (or anyone else) who supports abortion, is more than likely in a state of mortal sin and should not receive Communion. And, politicians who openly support abortion in their policies and votes, should be openly denied Communion should they go up to receive.

God bless!

John Martignoni"
[/color]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 5 2006, 11:59 PM']Oh, and techinically pro-choice Catholics are normally against abortion but let the mother decide.  Different from pro-abortion. 
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If they pro-choice Catholic teaches or supports a mothers choice to murder her baby that is heresy.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 6 2006, 01:07 AM']If they pro-choice Catholic teaches or supports a mothers choice to murder her baby that is heresy.
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Nuh uh, it's just bad logic.

Again, read my distinction between actions, supporting actions, and supporting the right to those actions.

[qfnol31]

Again, clarify. You say abortion is heresy, I say (with the Church) no action in itself is heresy.

All these authors you quote say the [b]support[/b] of abortion is heresy, not the abortion in itself.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 6 2006, 12:12 AM']Nuh uh, it's just bad logic.

Again, read my distinction between actions, supporting actions, and supporting the right to those actions.
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It is just bad and sinful teaching, aka Heresy. Teaching or supporting or having, preforming a abortion(s) is "ok" or legal or not agaist God in everyway is Heresy. Abortion is always Murder.

Just as it would be Heresy to teach Murder is ok or murder is ok sometimes would be heresy. Abortion is Murder. Teaching abortion is ok even sometimes is Heresy. Teaching that letting the mother choice is heresy the mother has not right to murder, to teach this is heresy.

I know my grammer is bad, but Support of any abortion is Heresy. Good Night.

Peace in Christ God Save the Unborn,