Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 04:28 PM']LOL yeah funny your twisting my words HA HA HA!!!  I have the right as do you to not agree with others.  You have the free will to believe what you will, but  I believe Truth.  Abortion is Murder, Abortion is Heresy, Abortion is a Holocaust.  THe people that fund and pass laws for abortion have commented Murder, Heresy, and a Holocaust.

You do not "have" to adhere to anything I say, you do not believe me fine... but I have every right to say what I do, just as you.

You are just a zealous.  What is wrong with being "Filled with or motivated by zeal" which is "Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance."

Answer - nothing.
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I am twisting nothing......and I am simply stating the truth. Yes, abortion is murder. No, abortion, properly speaking is not heresy. The people that fund and pass laws have not committed murder. One cannot pass a personal sin onto another.

Yes, I am full of zeal. However, I am not incorrect in my view. It is clearly in line with Rome and the magisterial understanding. If it is not, show me through documentation that I am incorrect. You have already shown through documentation that I am right. Thanks for that by the way.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jan 4 2006, 02:10 PM']It has nothing to do with your rights as a U.S. citizen, or with the U.S. at all, and everything to do with propriety. There is a proper way to deal with things, and public hostility and virulence is rarely the proper way. It is not proper, or effective for that matter, to publicly spew venomous rants because [i]you[/i] think [i]you[/i] know better than all the bishops, cardinals, and the pope himself how to deal with lost souls. [i]You[/i] have no right to dictate when and how the Church will respond to something.
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Indeed... I understand your point in this matter... I have no right to tell the bishops what to do. I do not know better than the Pope or his Bishops. The fact remains The Church must to do something more. The Church is doing little... or not all it could. And the Bishops lead the church.

It should be known Pro-Choice Catholic Lawmakers do the same as you say I do.. but worse... much worse... do they not?

As for Abortion Heretics they are automatically excommuitaced, there is no need for a Bishop... unless and I pray with all my heart the Heretics repent of their sins.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 4 2006, 02:37 PM']I am twisting nothing......and I am simply stating the truth.  Yes, abortion is murder.  No, abortion, properly speaking is not heresy.  The people that fund and pass laws have not committed murder.  One cannot pass a personal sin onto another.
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I ask you again... if a man pays another to murder his wife, does the husband comment murder or not?!

And if a man comments lust in his eyes for a woman does he comment adultery or not?


ps because of their very public and personal sin many millions of little babies are dead.

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 04:52 PM']Indeed... I understand your point in this matter...  I have no right to tell the bishops what to do.  I do not know better than the Pope or his Bishops.  The fact remains The Church must to do something more.  The Church is doing little... or not all it could.  And the Bishops lead the church.

It should be known Pro-Choice Catholic Lawmakers do the same as you say I do.. but worse... much worse... do they not?

As for Abortion Heretics they are automatically excommuitaced, there is no need for a Bishop... unless and I pray with all my heart the Heretics repent of their sins.
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And you completely misunderstand excommunication. You are confusing latae sententiae and fecundae sententiae. Go back and reread.

One is of the internal forum and the other external forum.

[JP2Iloveyou]

KnightofChrist, from where do you claim your authority? Do you have any education in Canon Law? Cam, on the other hand, is highly educated in philosophy and theology. Does this make him more qualified to speak on the matter than you? Not necessarily, but let me put it to you this way. If I have a question about Calculus, I'll trust the answer a math professor gives me as opposed to some guy who have never taken a college math class. You are flat out wrong on this. In fact, you are risking committing a serious sin yourself by declaring others heretics. That is a VERY serious claim to make. Your overzealousness is undermining your desire to instruct others in the truth.

No one has denied that abortion is an abomination, a crime against humanity as JPII once called it. No one has rejected the teaching of Evangelium Vitae. However, for you as a layman with no ecclesial authority to go around declaring others heretics is highly uncharitable, imprudent, and out of place.

I don't post on this website very often precisely because of what is happening here. Even as a man who has been a Catholic seminarian for three years, I am not qualified to comment on matters like this. When other equally unqualified people get into raging debates about it, it scandalizes others who are not as well-versed in their faith. Shame on everyone of us who goes around expounding our own opinions as though they were definitive Church teaching.

[JP2Iloveyou]

BTW, KnightofChrist, it is "commit" not "comment."

[Cam42]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Jan 4 2006, 05:30 PM']KnightofChrist,  from where do you claim your authority?  Do you have any education in Canon Law?  Cam, on the other hand, is highly educated in philosophy and theology.  Does this make him more qualified to speak on the matter than you?  Not necessarily, but let me put it to you this way.  If I have a question about Calculus, I'll trust the answer a math professor gives me as opposed to some guy who have never taken a college math class.  You are flat out wrong on this.  In fact, you are risking committing a serious sin yourself by declaring others heretics.  That is a VERY serious claim to make.  Your overzealousness is undermining your desire to instruct others in the truth. 

No one has denied that abortion is an abomination, a crime against humanity as JPII once called it.  No one has rejected the teaching of Evangelium Vitae.  However, for you as a layman with no ecclesial authority to go around declaring others heretics is highly uncharitable, imprudent, and out of place.

I don't post on this website very often precisely because of what is happening here.  Even as a man who has been a Catholic seminarian for three years, I am not qualified to comment on matters like this.  When other equally unqualified people get into raging debates about it, it scandalizes others who are not as well-versed in their faith.  Shame on everyone of us who goes around expounding our own opinions as though they were definitive Church teaching.
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Thanks for the support. What he said......

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 4 2006, 06:39 PM']Thanks for the support.   What he said......
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A Bishop agrees Support of Abortion is Heresy... : are you now just as quiafied as a Bishop as you are a Priest? I never thought all Bishops feared men more than God... I can't really say if any really do but this is one who DOES NOT with out doubt!


[u]
[b]A Twelve Step Program for Bishops[/b][/u]
by Bishop Rene Henry Gracida

My recent essay entitled “Denying Holy Communion, A Case Study” has prompted a number of people to suggest that the procedure which I followed in issuing a decree of Interdiction forbidding the reception of Holy Communion by a pro-abortion Texas State Representative is outdated. Some have suggested that such was fitting for 1994 but that it is no longer appropriate for 2004. They say that the times have changed. I agree that the times have changed — for the worse!

Now we have candidates for the Presidency and Congress publicly professing to be a practicing Catholics who, although supportive of many of the Church’s teachings on social issues, on the most important issue — the inalienable right to life — are diametrically opposed to our Holy Catholic Faith. The most important issue facing the world today is the assault on the sanctity of human life.

The highest teaching Authority of the Magisterium, Pope John Paul II and his Predecessors, as well as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, have taught repeatedly that the right to life is the foundation of all other rights in civil society. The denial of this basic right leads eventually to the denial of all others rights.

All other grave social issues, such as war, poverty, health, economic justice, immigration, etc. are of secondary importance and indeed pale in comparison to innocent human life under systematic annihilation. This is not simply a matter of one’s personal faith, it is a matter of reason.

The human intellect knows intuitively that the innocent person’s right to life has a greater priority than other social issues which are concerned with the quality of life. By magisterial teaching it also happens to be an article of Faith. Christ Himself instructed the Apostles and His Disciples to uphold the Fifth Commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Murder.” Ex. XX, 13. Bishops, as Successors to those Apostles, are charged with doing the same in Christ’s name.

In 1994 the greatest assault on innocent human life was being waged then, like now, by the abortionists. Euthanasia had begun to emerge as a growing concern, but cloning, embryonic stem cell research and even infanticide had not yet assumed the magnitude of the tragedy or danger that they pose in common today.

In that year of 1994, I felt that limiting Interdiction in the internal forum was important not only for the spiritual well being of the person being interdicted, but also for the spiritual good of the community. I had not felt that way about the three decrees of excommunication (latae sententiae) which I had issued earlier for one simple reason: they were directed at three Catholics who were directly involved in procuring murder by abortion - two women who each administered an abortuary and one doctor who performed the unspeakable evil of abortion himself.

Their cases, clearly constituting formal cooperation in evil, that is, the direct immediate and voluntary participation in the physical taking of human life, demanded the infliction of the gravest of public ecclesiastical penalties, excommunication. On the other hand, the case of a politician who publicly protested a “personal opposition” to abortion, all the while publicly defending a right to choose abortion as allowed by the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade, at that time did not appear to impel the public declaration of the gravest of censures.

[color=red]In 1995 Pope John Paul II concluded that it was urgent to promulgate the Encyclical Evangelium Vitae. [b]Some 12,000,000 abortions later, it has become crystal clear that the politician who actively engages his political skills to maintain abortion-on-demand and who protects the ongoing genocide by voting for legislation in favor of abortion [u]formally cooperates[/u] in the evil of abortion itself.[/b] In reality, the distinction between the abortionist and the politician is almost nominal: One, a murderer, is guilty of directly procuring abortions; the politician, makes it legally possible for the genocide to continue unabated.

Critically, now, without doubt, the integrity of the Christian Faith is under attack not just from without, but worse, from within the Church. [b]It is under attack by Catholic politicians who publicly and obstinately support what in all truth is [u]nothing less than Heresy[/u]. By [u]heresy[/u] I mean an[u] obstinate denial[/u] or doubt of a core, non-negotiable dogma of the Faith proposed by the Magisterium as revealed doctrine, as set forth in Canon 751 of the Code of Canon Law of 1983 and amended in 1998.[/b] In my recently published essay, “The Arian Heresy Revisited,” I tried to show that the heresy of the Fourth Century which denied the divinity of Christ, is the mirror-image of our modern heresy which denies the sanctity of the human person redeemed by His Incarnation, Passion, Death and Resurrection.

[b][u]Heresy is indeed committed[/u] by supporting either the moral rectitude of abortion as a “human right,” or absent that, professing merely the “civil right to abortion.”[/b] Both of these errors are so diametrically opposed to the demands of Christian witness that to obstinately adhere to them [/U][b]automatically[/b] cuts one off from any hope of salvation. [b]Any one Catholic who supports these [u]two heresies[/u] risks eternal damnation.[/b] I say this to all who have fallen into this error with all the voice of reason and clarity possible, with the full and earnest hope of their swift return to the One Body of Christ.
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Recognizing the complexity of the situation in the Church and in our society at the present time I should like to help my brother bishops find their way through the thicket of conflicting opinions and proposals for action. After substantial reflection, I propose a twelve-step program for my brother bishops to help them decisively deal with the grave crisis facing our Church and our Nation.

The proposed schema is unambiguous. The continuing scandal of Catholics publicly bearing false witness to the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ has not just become collusion in genocide, but indeed now a grave undermining of the authentic Deposit of Faith and Morals. To fail to act decisively now is to continue to let the wolves devour the sheep committed to us all to protect and keep.

The following are twelve simple rules enabling bishops to effectively remedy the crisis in all transparency yet resolute firmness:

1

Ordinaries need to instill publicly, through their personal preaching and through the vicarious preaching of their priests, that not only is it against the Christian Faith to support the ‘right to choose,’ but that one loses entirely the virtue of Supernatural Faith, the right to the Sacraments, Christian Burial, and more importantly, eternal Salvation if one publicly and obstinately adheres to a ‘right to choose abortion’ in opposition to the fundamental belief of the Christian and Apostolic Faith in the sanctity of innocent human life.

[color=red][b]Any public and obstinate support, by word or by vote, of either abortion, or absent that, “only” the civil “right-to-choose abortion” qualifies as heresy.[/b][/color] To be “personally opposed to abortion” is not a defense to supporting a “right to choose murder.” The propositions 1) “Abortion is not intrinsically evil” and 2) One has a “civil” or “human” right to choose abortion are both in reason, and by Divine Law, two specifically distinct heresies. A pro-choice Catholic politician may get away with not committing the one, but he certainly falls into the pit of committing the other.

2

The grave circumstances of the age in which we live, the obligation to proclaim the Faith in all its purity, the need to protect the Sacraments from sacrilege, and the obligation to eliminate grave scandal amongst the faithful all impel the bishop to publicly and courageously inquire among the clergy and laity of his diocese as to who amongst those Catholic politicians having a domicile in his territory are publicly supporting abortion or a right to choose, in accord with Canon 1717, No. 1. Evidence verifiable in the external forum should be presented along with any information.

3

Upon being presented with evidence of the presence in the Diocese of a politician having a domicile or quasi-domicile who both publicly holds the right-to-murder doctrine and receives the Sacrament of the Eucharist, and, upon verification of the evidence, the bishop should order the individual to appear before him quam primum (Canon 1339, No. 2).

4

Should the politician agree to the meeting, the bishop should at that time point out his error, reiterate to the individual the obligation to submit with the assent of Faith to the dogmatic teaching of the Church on the need to respect innocent human life. Clarify the absolute incompatibility of the position he espouses with the baptismal character, and thence order him to cease and desist from any further or private support of his pro-choice deviance. As a Catholic in public office, the individual can never favor or condone a right to abortion, but to the contrary, must strive to limit and revoke pro-choice legislation. As the obligation to publicly profess dogmatic Faith inures in the Catholic subject whenever publicly interrogated, [color=red][b]a Catholic can never support, whether in public or in private, a right to choose abortion (Canon 750, No. 1, Canon 1364, No. 1).
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5

Should the politician not agree to the meeting, then the substance of Step No. 4 should be sent to the individual in writing by registered mail (Canon 1509, No. 1;)

6

At the conclusion of the meeting agreed to, the bishop should obtain a formal written recantation of the individual’s erroneous beliefs. Once done, an offer to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation should be extended to the penitent.

7

If the bishop obtains a formal written recantation, with the consent of the individual, he should release a statement publicizing the fact that the individual and the Church are one in the same Faith once again (cfr. Canon 1347, No. 1). Additionally, an obligation for reparation of harm and the dispelling of scandal, commensurate to the degree of injury done to the Faith, the Church, and civil society, needs to be completed or seriously promised prior to reconciliation (Canon 1347, No. 2).

8

If the bishop is unable to obtain a formal written retraction, fraternal correction and canonical correction should be exercised in writing by registered mail (Canon 1339, Nos. 1-3), and, if possible, in person, reproving that 1) the requirement of Christian witness to a non-negotiable tenet of the Faith demands that he be publicly identified as holding a contradictory position to that of the Catholic Church, depriving him of the right to call himself “Catholic,” and 2) should the individual refuse to amend his ways, the Bishop may impose an Interdict ferendae sententiae barring him from receiving the Most Holy Eucharist in order to safeguard unambiguously and without question the provisions of Canon 915. Moreover, the individual may be advised that, circumstances warranting, the Ordinary may, after the expiration of a certain allowance of time as set forth in the monitum, [b][color=red]publicly declare him to have been automatically excommunicated [u]for heresy[/u] according to Canon 1364, No. 1, and deprived from the reception of all of the Sacraments (Canon 1331, No. 1 as well as Christian burial (Canon 1184, No. 1).[/color][/b]

9

After giving the individual a reasonable period of time for reflection and consultation with his confessor/spiritual director (Canon 1347, Nos. 1-2), failing the acceptance of a further opportunity for emendation provided to the individual within a determined time limit, the bishop should decide by decree and after consultation with two other judges or experts (Canon 1718, Nos. 2-3), whether he can (Canon 1718, No. 1, 1), should (Canons 1341: 1718, No. 1, 2), and must (Canon 1728, No. 1, 3) proceed by way of judicial process or extra-judicial administrative decree in order to inflict or declare the commensurate penalty of Interdict ferendae sententiae, or declare [b][color=red][u]Excommunication for heresy[/u] to have been incurred latae sententiae.
[/color][/b]
10

Once the Sentence is pronounced, or the extra-judicial Decree issued, the Bishop should promulgate the decree by publication in the diocesan newspaper with an appropriate description of the process leading up to the issuing of the canonical decree (Canon 8, No. 2).

11

After the publication of the decree, the bishop should send a letter to the clergy explaining to them what their duties and responsibilities are in respect to the penalties imposed by the decree.

12

[color=red]The bishop should follow up on the publication of the decree with a letter to the recalcitrant, urging him to return into full communion with the Church, reminding him of the Parable of the Prodigal Son: As the Good Shepherd never refrains from welcoming a stray sheep back into the fold, so will the bishop, in imitation of Christ, always strive to bring the one who became lost back into the bosom of Holy Mother Church, but only in entire Truth and Charity.[/color]

This Twelve-Step Program is clear, coherent with the Faith, and in accordance with the requirements of canonical equity. If the Penal Canons of the Code are now to be dusted off and brought out of the cupboard within which they have lain dormant for almost half-a-century, it is because the balm of mercy and discretion of measure have failed to heal the growing infection of error and scandal inside the Church and the genocide increasing daily in the world around us. The time for half-measures and fear of reprisal, loss of position, temporal advantage, or career opportunity is over — [u][b]the time for action in now.[/b][/u]

Rene Henry Gracida, DD
[color=red]Bishop[/color] Emeritus of Corpus Christi

Edited January 5, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Cam42]

[quote name='Bishop Gracida']The proposed schema is unambiguous. The continuing scandal of Catholics publicly bearing false witness to the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ has not just become collusion in genocide, but indeed now a grave undermining of the authentic Deposit of Faith and Morals.[/quote]

Interesting proposition by Bishop Gracida, but has it been ratified by Rome? It has not. Notice that the language is not one of confirmation, but of proposition. You highlighted the wrong part. I have quoted the important section of the article written by Bishop Gracida.

I daresay that the opinion of one bishop is not authoritative enough to change the overall view of the Magisterium.

At this point, that is still in the realm of opinion and not of accepted thought by the Church at large.

I am still waiting for tangible proof that your position is supported by the Magisterium.

[KnightofChrist]

[color=blue]Cam42 - Interesting proposition by Bishop Gracida, but has it been ratified by Rome? It has not.
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KnightofChrist - Yet you use a un-"ratifed" news report to back your opinion with a un-named Vatican official calling this man who hides in shadows "Reputable and Accurate." And I use a Bishop who has the gutts to give his name.

[color=blue]Cam42 - Notice that the language is not one of confirmation, but of proposition. You highlighted the wrong part. I have quoted the important section of the article written by Bishop Gracida.
[/color]
KnightofChrist - You pick one word out of the letter and you think it supports your opinion? No. No it does not. Twisting his words is what you are doing.

[color=red]"It is under attack by Catholic politicians who publicly and obstinately support what in all truth is nothing less than Heresy."[/color] and [color=red]"The continuing scandal of Catholics publicly bearing false witness to the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ has not just become collusion in genocide, but indeed now a grave undermining of the authentic Deposit of Faith and Morals."[/color] If these quotes are not enuff confirmation for you, you have no idea what confirmation is.
[color=blue]

Cam42 - I daresay that the opinion of one bishop is not authoritative enough to change the overall view of the Magisterium.[/color]


KnightofChrist - It is only your view and opinion that the Bishop has a different view than of that of the Magisterium. Are you really questioning the Teaching of the Bishop do you really think he does not know Canon law better than you?

The Bishop is not changing anything you are. [color=red]"By heresy I mean an obstinate denial or doubt of a core, non-negotiable dogma of the Faith proposed by [u]the Magisterium[/u] as revealed doctrine, as set forth in Canon 751 of the Code of Canon Law of 1983 and amended in 1998."

[/color]
[color=blue]Cam42 - At this point, that is still in the realm of opinion and not of accepted thought by the Church at large.
[/color]
KnightofChrist - The only one in the realm of opinion is you and you are not a Bishop, He is, you are not. I believe the Bishop I do not believe you.

[color=blue]Cam42 - I am still waiting for tangible proof that your position is supported by the Magisterium.[/color]


KnightofChrist - The Bishop has given you the tangible proof yet you've trash it!

The Bishop knows better than you, give it up man stop trying to change the view a of the Magisterium.

[Tata126]

Wow, KnightofChrist, I've lost all respect for you. I'm not even going to argue against you, because you won't listen to people who know theology better than I do, so you certainly wouldn't listen to me, but I'm really disappointed. I had hoped that people on this site would listen to the people with the theology degrees.

[rkwright]

this thread is getting sickening

Knight - its obvious this isn't offical teaching of the Church or it would be every where, pro-choice catholics (yes this is a contradiction, but face it they do exsist) would be up in arms and John Kerry would not have been allowed. You're making a jump the Church isn't ready to make yet. And back off Cam, your personal attacks are pretty lame. Hes got an entire degree on this so I would side with him, along with most the people here.

I like to come to the phatmass debate table and see something highly interesting, thought provoking, that makes me think..not this name calling carp

Where did our Open Theism thread go...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tata126' date='Jan 4 2006, 11:23 PM']Wow, KnightofChrist, I've lost all respect for you.  I'm not even going to argue against you, because you won't listen to people who know theology better than I do, so you certainly wouldn't listen to me, but I'm really disappointed.  I had hoped that people on this site would listen to the people with the theology degrees.
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Wow, to bad, I do not know you and I have respect for you. I know, I know I am very heavy handed against Cam42 but it does not mean I do not respect him as a Man. If I did not respect him, well... I would have called him alot of nasty names, which is below me. I would give my life for his, as for you. He is just wrong, if I did not "listen" to him I would not have responed to anything he had to say your opinion is not correct. A theology degree(s) does not make one right.

Sorry if I can not believe Cam42, I believe the Bishop. He does not.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 4 2006, 11:26 PM']this thread is getting sickening

Knight - its obvious this isn't offical teaching of the Church or it would be every where,  pro-choice catholics (yes this is a contradiction, but face it they do exsist) would be up in arms and John Kerry would not have been allowed.  You're making a jump the Church isn't ready to make yet.  And back off Cam, your personal attacks are pretty lame.  Hes got an entire degree on this so I would side with him, along with most the people here.

I like to come to the phatmass debate table and see something highly interesting, thought provoking, that makes me think..not this name calling carp

Where did our Open Theism thread go...
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It is not obvious... and it is a Teaching of the Bishop, a Shepherd of the Church, yes maybe I have be too heavy handed against Cam... however his degrees do not make him right. I will believe the Bishop.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 4 2006, 10:27 PM']
I daresay that the opinion of one bishop is not authoritative enough to change the overall view of the Magisterium.

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I catch hell for my "rants" and maybe rightfully so... if I have ranted it does not make The Bishop wrong, yet Cam acuses a Bishop of trying to change the overall view of the Magisterium and that is not notice.