Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[Cam42]

I am not going to answer your questionaire. Sorry. And I did answer your questions.

The news story was not "nonsense." It was reputable and it was accurate. Again, I am sorry if you don't like the truth of the matter.

I am not going to allow you to defame me because I choose not to answer your whimsical questions.

[Didacus]

Miles,

i'll reply this to your questionaire;

if at any time you are in power to prevent a murder, or an abortion, and you wilfully choose not to do so, you share in the guilt of the murder being comitted.

that is not to say that you are the murderer him/her self, but you certainly would share in the guilt.

It would be a question of guilt severity and of language/terms from there. IMHO

back to you Bob.

[Cam42]

This thread is a great example of why the Church holds to objective truth. The emotions of some have overridden the objective truth.

The Church does not judge based upon the subjective feelings of a few, but rather hte objective teachings of her Church.

I have asked for objective documentation which supports the contrary position which I have defended. It has not even been attempted. Rather the only support given has gone to strenghten my position.

The only thing offered thus far to counter my position is conjecture and opinion.

As I said earlier, since the Vatican doesn't think that this is a case of heresy, neither do I. If they change their view, so will I. That is assenting my will to the clear teaching of the Church.

[Cam42]

I think that there is a misunderstanding about excommunication. Since it was brought to me in PM, I will post publicly what the various types of excommunication are. Here goes:

There are several types of excommunication. The first is implied or latae sententiae. The second is imposed or Ferendae Sententiae.

Excommunication is either a jure (by law) or ab homine (by judicial act of man, i.e. by a judge). The first is provided by the law itself, which declares that whosoever shall have been guilty of a definite crime will incur the penalty of excommunication. The second is inflicted by an ecclesiastical prelate, either when he issues a serious order under pain of excommunication or imposes this penalty by judicial sentence and after a criminal trial.

Excommunication, especially a jure, is either latæ or ferendæ sententiæ. The first is incurred as soon as the offence is committed and by reason of the offence itself (eo ipso) without intervention of any ecclesiastical judge; it is recognized in the terms used by the legislator, for instance: "the culprit will be excommunicated at once, by the fact itself [statim, ipso facto]". The second is indeed foreseen by the law as a penalty, but is inflicted on the culprit only by a judicial sentence; in other words, the delinquent is rather threatened than visited with the penalty, and incurs it only when the judge has summoned him before his tribunal, declared him guilty, and punished him according to the terms of the law. It is recognized when the law contains these or similar words: "under pain of excommunication"; "the culprit will be excommunicated".

Excommunication ferendæ sententiæ can be public only, as it must be the object of a declaratory sentence pronounced by a judge; but excommunication latæ sententiæ may be either public or occult. It is public through the publicity of the law when it is imposed and published by ecclesiastical authority; it is public through notoriety of fact when the offence that has incurred it is known to the majority in the locality, as in the case of those who have publicly done violence to clerics, or of the purchasers of church property. On the contrary, excommunication is occult when the offence entailing it is known to no one or almost no one. The first is valid in the forum externum and consequently in the forum internum; the second is valid in the forum internum only. The practical difference is very important. He who has incurred occult excommunication should treat himself as excommunicated and be absolved as soon as possible, submitting to whatever conditions will be imposed upon him, but this only in the tribunal of conscience; he is not obliged to denounce himself to a judge nor to abstain from external acts connected with the exercise of jurisdiction, and he may ask absolution without making himself known either in confession or to the Sacred Penitentiaria. According to the teaching of Benedict XIV (De synodo, X, i, 5), "a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the forum externum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty". Public excommunication, on the other hand, is removed only by a public absolution; when it is question of simple publicity of fact, the absolution, while not judicial, is nevertheless public, inasmuch as it is given to a known person and appears as an act of the forum externum.

Finally, excommunication is either reserved or non-reserved. This division affects the absolution from censure. In the forum internum any confessor can absolve from non reserved excommunications; but those that are reserved can only be remitted, except through indult or delegation, by those to whom the law reserves the absolution. There is a distinction between excommunications reserved to the pope (these being divided into two classes, according to which they are either specially or simply reserved to him) and those reserved to bishops or ordinaries. As to excommunications ab homine, absolution from them is reserved by law to the judge who has inflicted them. In a certain sense excommunications may also be reserved in view of the persons who incur them; thus absolution from excommunications in foro externo incurred by bishops is reserved to the pope; again, custom reserves to him the excommunication of sovereigns.

Being excommunicated does not remove the Catholicity of someone. In other words, if one is excommunicated, he does not cease to be a Catholic. He is simply barred from practicing the faith publicly until he has reconciled with Rome.

[p0lar_bear]

KnightofChrist,

You say "excommunicate them", but to what end?

If you want to excommunicate people who support abortion because you want to kick them out of the Church, you have grossly misunderstood the nature and purpose of excommunication. The Church doesn't use excommunication to kick out everyone who is not good enough. It is a disciplinary procedure intended to help bring people back into the heart of the Church.

Abortion is a great evil. No one here is denying that, but there is a lot more that goes into a declaration of heresy and an excommunication. It is for the bishops and the hierarchy to decide to excommunicate someone or declare them to be a heretic. It is not your place.

Stand up for truth; demonstrate to people why abortion is wrong; and above all pray for an end to abortion; but do not presume to proclaim yourself the judge and jury for those in error or the bishops appointed by God to care for them. The bishops decide how to deal with the situation, not you. If you disagree with how it is being handled, take it up with the bishops, not in a public forum.



BTW, great job Cam.

[Didacus]

Agreed - great job Cam. I would be curious as to the result of an identical poll now that the discussion has carried on this far.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 4 2006, 11:59 AM']I am not going to answer your questionaire.  Sorry.  And I did answer your questions.

The news story was not "nonsense."  It was reputable and it was accurate.  Again, I am sorry if you don't like the truth of the matter.

I am not going to allow you to defame me because I choose not to answer your whimsical questions.
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Oh well... I knew you would have not the gutts to answer the questionaire. How could you answer truthfully (following the rules of the questionaire) and still hold to your so-called "truth". The Truth is you could not. You have proven it by your lack to even try to answer the questionaire. And No Sir, You did not really answer my questions you took my statements and turned them around to fit your opinion. Answer the questionaire and your statement "I did answer your questions." will be true.

And it is indeed nonsense if this hidden person from the Vatican does not have the gutts to reveal his name. I do not use men in shadows to form my arguments, you shouldnt either. It makes you weak. IT WAS NOT REPUTABLE OR ACCURATE if that was so, the person would have revealed their name!!!!!! If he can not even reveal his name how can you even prove that this person is real, let alone really from the Vatican? Truth is you can not... he (if he exist) hides in the shadows.

I'm not going to "defame" you, I rebuke you and your opinion. The questionaire is more for others than you. It is to rebuke your "whimsical", weak, and flawed statements, so others can see your opinions are wrong.

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 03:28 PM']Oh well... I knew you would have not the gutts to answer the questionaire.  How could you answer truthfully (following the rules of the questionaire) and still hold to your so-called "truth".  The Truth is you could not.  You have proven it by your lack to even try to answer the questionaire. And No Sir, You did not really answer my questions you took my statements and turned them around to fit your opinion.  Answer the questionaire and your statement "I did answer your questions." will be true.

And it is indeed nonsense if this hidden person from the Vatican does not have the gutts to reveal his name.  I do not use men in shadows to form my arguments, you shouldnt either.  It makes you weak.  IT WAS NOT REPUTABLE OR ACCURATE if that was so, the person would have revealed their name!!!!!!  If he can not even reveal his name how can you even prove that this person is real, let alone really from the Vatican?  Truth is you can not... he (if he exist) hides in the shadows.

I'm not going to "defame" you, I rebuke you and your opinion.  The questionaire is more for others than you.  It is to rebuke your "whimsical", weak, and flawed statements, so others can see your opinions are wrong.
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typical.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jan 4 2006, 01:24 PM']KnightofChrist,

You say "excommunicate them", but to what end?

If you want to excommunicate people who support abortion because you want to kick them out of the Church, you have grossly misunderstood the nature and purpose of excommunication. The Church doesn't use excommunication to kick out everyone who is not good enough. It is a disciplinary procedure intended to help bring people back into the heart of the Church.

Abortion is a great evil. No one here is denying that, but there is a lot more that goes into a declaration of heresy and an excommunication. It is for the bishops and the hierarchy to decide to excommunicate someone or declare them to be a heretic. It is not your place.

Stand up for truth; demonstrate to people why abortion is wrong; and above all pray for an end to abortion; but do not presume to proclaim yourself the judge and jury for those in error or the bishops appointed by God to care for them. The bishops decide how to deal with the situation, not you. If you disagree with how it is being handled, take it up with the bishops, not in a public forum.
BTW, great job Cam.
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I say they are already excommunicated, and Church Law has made it so. And this is to an end to stop others from being lead to hell, by Pro-Choice Lawmakers. Indeed I have not "grossly misunderstood the nature and purpose of excommunication." If you can not see the need for disciplinary procedure of excommunication for those that Murder Millions then something is wrong.

Pro-Choice Lawmakers, have by their actions commented The Abortion Heresy and automatically excommunicated themselfs under Canon Law. I know it is not my place, you misunderstand me.

And I want pray with everything part of my heart for people like Ted Kennedy to repent and believe in the Right to Life. However it has been 30 some years since 1973. And little has been done to rebuke Catholics like him, to others in the faith who may not know alot about abortion, they may think since Kennedy can call himself Catholic and appear in good standing with the Church the person may think "its ok to support abortion and still be Catholic, Kennedy can do it why not me?!"

I stand up for Truth. I have shown to many people why abortion is evil, I pray for the unborn every moment that I remember abortion is evil.

The Bishops I fear will not deicide to deal with this situation in a timely manner, just as they did with the sex abuse situation. I have indeed taken it up with The Untied States Bishops. ANd this is the United States I have very right pulbically voice my opinion about the Bishops.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 01:58 PM']ANd this is the United States I have very right pulbically voice my opinion about the Bishops.
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It has nothing to do with your rights as a U.S. citizen, or with the U.S. at all, and everything to do with propriety. There is a proper way to deal with things, and public hostility and virulence is rarely the proper way. It is not proper, or effective for that matter, to publicly spew venomous rants because [i]you[/i] think [i]you[/i] know better than all the bishops, cardinals, and the pope himself how to deal with lost souls. [i]You[/i] have no right to dictate when and how the Church will respond to something.

[Cam42]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jan 4 2006, 04:10 PM']It has nothing to do with your rights as a U.S. citizen, or with the U.S. at all, and everything to do with propriety. There is a proper way to deal with things, and public hostility and virulence is rarely the proper way. It is not proper, or effective for that matter, to publicly spew venomous rants because [i]you[/i] think [i]you[/i] know better than all the bishops, cardinals, and the pope himself how to deal with lost souls. [i]You[/i] have no right to dictate when and how the Church will respond to something.
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Funny isn't it, that he will discount my view, because I am not a priest, but we are to adhere to his......because he is what, zealous?

[KnightofChrist]

Well Cam you seem dead set on not seeing the Abortion Heresy, or The Abortion Holocaust.

What great disciplinary action should be or could be taken against Pro-Choice Catholic Lawmakers? You do at least believe the Pro-Choice Catholics can lead many others away from truth do you not? And should not some great disciplinary action be taken? Or not?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 4 2006, 02:14 PM']Funny isn't it, that he will discount my view, because I am not a priest, but we are to adhere to his......because he is what, zealous?
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LOL yeah funny your twisting my words HA HA HA!!! I have the right as do you to not agree with others. You have the free will to believe what you will, but I believe Truth. Abortion is Murder, Abortion is Heresy, Abortion is a Holocaust. THe people that fund and pass laws for abortion have commented Murder, Heresy, and a Holocaust.

You do not "have" to adhere to anything I say, you do not believe me fine... but I have every right to say what I do, just as you.

You are just a zealous. What is wrong with being "Filled with or motivated by zeal" which is "Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance."

Answer - nothing.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 4 2006, 02:14 PM']Funny isn't it, that he will discount my view, because I am not a priest, but we are to adhere to his......because he is what, zealous?
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LOL yeah funny your twisting my words HA HA HA!!! I have the right as do you to not agree with others. You have the free will to believe what you will, but I believe Truth. Abortion is Murder, Abortion is Heresy, Abortion is a Holocaust. THe people that fund and pass laws for abortion have commented Murder, Heresy, and a Holocaust.

You do not "have" to adhere to anything I say, you do not believe me fine... but I have every right to say what I do, just as you.

You are just a zealous. What is wrong with being "Filled with or motivated by zeal" which is "Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance."

Answer - nothing.

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 4 2006, 04:16 PM']Well Cam you seem dead set on not seeing the Abortion Heresy, or The Abortion Holocaust.

What great disciplinary action should be or could be taken against Pro-Choice Catholic Lawmakers?  You do at least believe the Pro-Choice Catholics can lead many others away from truth do you not?  And should not some great disciplinary action be taken?  Or not?
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Things are not as they always seem, now are they? I certainly see the horrors and evils of abortion. Incidentally, I was a sidewalk counsellor in college, so I can speak to the evil of what you are so adamant I have no clue about.

They should be introduced to proper catechesis. I think that with proper catechesis they will not lead anyone away from the truth.
As for disciplinary action, I will go with what the Church mete's out.