Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[Nihil Obstat]

I believe that a "pro choice Catholic" certainly falls into heresy in regards to their understanding of the sacredness of life.

I would hesitate to say that they're a heretic because of their pro abortion position, but what I would say is that they're a heretic because of their views which have led them to a pro abortion position. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I think it's a relevant distinction.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1278861642' post='2141187']
The whole issue lies on the fact that you believe morality is dogmatic, which it is not. Dogma comes from ex cathedra statements, councils, etc. It does not come from the ordinary magisterium. Morality, including abortion, comes from the ordinary magisterium and as such is a doctrine, not a dogma. This is an important distinction to make. Both are binding on Catholics and both are infallible teachings. Dogma, a subset of doctrine, is what makes up our Faith, it is the list of things which we believe. They are often finely tuned points that we call mysteries. Doctrine, which includes dogma (but is not necessarily dogma,) are Catholic beliefs which are binding on Catholics and are beliefs which come from the Faith. These are not mysteries in the same way Dogma would be. In fact, there is little contemplative mystery about the error of murder. Breaking with dogmatic statements makes you a heretic. However, doctrinal statements do not carry the same weight.

I have to run off to work, but I'll come back tonight and kind of make my case. However, I beseech you to look at the wording of mysterium ecclessia and the Canon. The canon uses the definition of dogma. Natural law is not divinely revealed, but is given by God. That is to say, God does not need to tell us what is in natural law. Almost all morality comes from natural law.
[/quote]

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

[b]"Heresy [/b]is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which [b]MUST[/b] [b]be believed[/b] with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;


2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72


Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the [b]moral evil of every procured abortion[/b]. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is [b]gravely contrary to the moral law: [/b]
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church [b]attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication [/b]to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it[b] must [/b]be treated from conception as a person, the embryo [b]must be defended [/b]in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

[b]And what is not clear about this?[/b]

Edited July 12, 2010 by thessalonian

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='11 July 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1278861642' post='2141187']
The whole issue lies on the fact that you believe morality is dogmatic, which it is not. Dogma comes from ex cathedra statements, councils, etc. It does not come from the ordinary magisterium. Morality, including abortion, comes from the ordinary magisterium and as such is a doctrine, not a dogma. This is an important distinction to make. Both are binding on Catholics and both are infallible teachings. Dogma, a subset of doctrine, is what makes up our Faith, it is the list of things which we believe. They are often finely tuned points that we call mysteries. Doctrine, which includes dogma (but is not necessarily dogma,) are Catholic beliefs which are binding on Catholics and are beliefs which come from the Faith. These are not mysteries in the same way Dogma would be. In fact, there is little contemplative mystery about the error of murder. Breaking with dogmatic statements makes you a heretic. However, doctrinal statements do not carry the same weight.

I have to run off to work, but I'll come back tonight and kind of make my case. However, I beseech you to look at the wording of mysterium ecclessia and the Canon. The canon uses the definition of dogma. Natural law is not divinely revealed, but is given by God. That is to say, God does not need to tell us what is in natural law. Almost all morality comes from natural law.
[/quote]

The Church cannot err in its teachings on Faith OR Morals, as long as it comes from a source that is given an authoritative voice by the Church, such as the Catechism (as opposed to an individual, such as a bishop who makes a claim on his own). So regardless of whether or not the morality of abortion is Dogma, or Doctrine, or if it falls under neither of these categories, it doesn't matter. If you don't follow the teachings of the Church on matters of morality, then you are a heretic. So yes, you do have to believe that abortion is immoral.

Also, to the PM community, it is confusing to new people when people speak in ways like this, and they have a Vatican flag flying under their names. Certainly, anyone who makes the claim that what is in the Catechism doesn't have to be believed should not have that flag.

Edited July 13, 2010 by fides' Jack

[Bennn]

Those who commit/participate in an abortion while lying to themselves that there is 'nothing wrong with it', are most certainly heretics and inflict a latae sentiae upon themselves.

Those who commit/participate in an abortion while accepting the fact that it is a grave moral offense, are committing mortal sin and also inflict a latae sentiae upon themselves, but they are not considered heretics because they accept the fact that it is a grave offense.

I think that's how the Church views it. Please feel free to correct me if I made a mistake.

Moral issues are definately matters of doctrine, though.

[Jaime]

This is a great example of Camster's ability to teach!

[ThePenciledOne]

You know I voted No, because I don't think other beings are a cancer no matter the context. And maybe it's this attitude that pro-abortionists have such a problem with us Christians because we can't put our money where our mouth is. I mean by this is that we can't [b]LOVE[/b]. Sure they may dissent from the Church, but we can't understand and [b]Love[/b] them entirely as they are including their distorted understanding of [b]Life[/b] then how are they supposed to see the [b]Light[/b] at all?

KoC, I'm disappointed in you.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306599388' post='2247076']
but if we can't understand and [b]Love[/b] them entirely as they are including their distorted understanding of [b]Life[/b] then how are they supposed to see the [b]Light[/b] at all?
[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

old thread resurrectionists are heretics too hot stuff

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306599388' post='2247076']
You know I voted No, because I don't think other beings are a cancer no matter the context. And maybe it's this attitude that pro-abortionists have such a problem with us Christians because we can't put our money where our mouth is. I mean by this is that we can't [b]LOVE[/b]. Sure they may dissent from the Church, but we can't understand and [b]Love[/b] them entirely as they are including their distorted understanding of [b]Life[/b] then how are they supposed to see the [b]Light[/b] at all?

KoC, I'm disappointed in you.
[/quote]
Plenty of heretics saw the light just fine as the fire was lapping up around thier ankles.


Abortion is a horrid, terrible thing, those who do it are child murdering monsters. I have no desire to understand them, anymore than I have a desire to understand Ted Bundy.

Do I love them, yes, I desire all to go to heaven but even burning a heretic can be loving act.


I am glad they have a problem with us, because I certianly have a problem with them, I'd sooner share coffee with Ayman al Zwahiri than an abortionist, at least he's an enemy whose upfront about it. The exact opposite of these cowards who murder children and act like they are doing a public service.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306614884' post='2247135']
Plenty of heretics saw the light just fine as the fire was lapping up around thier ankles.


Abortion is a horrid, terrible thing, those who do it are child murdering monsters. I have no desire to understand them, anymore than I have a desire to understand Ted Bundy.

Do I love them, yes, I desire all to go to heaven but even burning a heretic can be loving act.


I am glad they have a problem with us, because I certianly have a problem with them, I'd sooner share coffee with Ayman al Zwahiri than an abortionist, at least he's an enemy whose upfront about it. The exact opposite of these cowards who murder children and act like they are doing a public service.
[/quote]


burning a heretic can be a loving act? ok, explain that one.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306614884' post='2247135']
Plenty of heretics saw the light just fine as the fire was lapping up around thier ankles.


Abortion is a horrid, terrible thing, those who do it are child murdering monsters. I have no desire to understand them, anymore than I have a desire to understand Ted Bundy.
[/quote]

That's fine, though that is just you. Every person merits equal dignity no matter they are a baby or baby killer. We can keep individuals account for their actions, but our own demands us to love them.

[quote]

Do I love them, yes, I desire all to go to heaven but even burning a heretic can be loving act.

[/quote]

Explain.


[quote]
I am glad they have a problem with us, because I certianly have a problem with them, I'd sooner share coffee with Ayman al Zwahiri than an abortionist, at least he's an enemy whose upfront about it. The exact opposite of these cowards who murder children and act like they are doing a public service.
[/quote]

Many others act the same, but that is because their desires are disordered by sin.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1278908585' post='2141509']
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

[b]"Heresy [/b]is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which [b]MUST[/b] [b]be believed[/b] with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;


2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72


Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the [b]moral evil of every procured abortion[/b]. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is [b]gravely contrary to the moral law: [/b]
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church [b]attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication [/b]to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it[b] must [/b]be treated from conception as a person, the embryo [b]must be defended [/b]in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

[b]And what is not clear about this?[/b]
[/quote]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1279047302' post='2142124']
The Church cannot err in its teachings on Faith OR Morals, as long as it comes from a source that is given an authoritative voice by the Church, such as the Catechism (as opposed to an individual, such as a bishop who makes a claim on his own). So regardless of whether or not the morality of abortion is Dogma, or Doctrine, or if it falls under neither of these categories, it doesn't matter. If you don't follow the teachings of the Church on matters of morality, then you are a heretic. So yes, you do have to believe that abortion is immoral.

Also, to the PM community, it is confusing to new people when people speak in ways like this, and they have a Vatican flag flying under their names. Certainly, anyone who makes the claim that what is in the Catechism doesn't have to be believed should not have that flag.
[/quote]

Thanks guys, great and [u]awe[/u]some points from the [b]teaching[/b] of Mother Church.

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306599388' post='2247076']
You know I voted No, because I don't think other beings are a cancer no matter the context. And maybe it's this attitude that pro-abortionists have such a problem with us Christians because we can't put our money where our mouth is. I mean by this is that we can't [b]LOVE[/b]. Sure they may dissent from the Church, but we can't understand and [b]Love[/b] them entirely as they are including their distorted understanding of [b]Life[/b] then how are they supposed to see the [b]Light[/b] at all?[/quote]

I still vote that those Public persons, ie politicians who claim to be Catholics are in a sense a cancer upon the Church. Love is important however, I love every human being. But politicians who claim to be Catholic but support the mass murder of children are in a sense a cancer upon the Church because they claim to be part of the Church while supporting the mass murder of babies, and leading others into that same error and endangering their souls and the souls of others into damnation.

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306599388' post='2247076']KoC, I'm disappointed in you.
[/quote]

I assure you I am crying many rivers of great sads. Boo Woo

Edited May 29, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1306614672' post='2247134']
old thread resurrectionists are heretics too hot stuff
[/quote]
that's for beaver dam sure

[Lil Red]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306651524' post='2247287']
I assure you I am crying many rivers of great sads. Boo Woo
[/quote]
i lol'd.

[Amppax]

I agree with Cam, now that we've kick-started this old thread

Edited May 30, 2011 by Amppax