Are Pro-"Choice" "catholics" Heretics?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

a lot of weird carp.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Vivacristorey' date='Jan 15 2006, 04:43 PM']wow.... i think that wisdom comes from the youth (aka the twelve year old) as well as adults (the one with the degree) and we shouldnt put people down because of their age ("i think i know what i'm talking about") but we also shouldnt burn people at the stake ("thou shalt not kill") because being prolife and burning someone at the stake is pretty hypocritical... and life is sacred which is why we're prolife... and true prolifers are against the death penalty...

so no burning at the stake and no putting down, ok?

~*sarah*~
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Except that I actually do know what I am talking about, Sarah.

[Resurrexi]

hello! Louis IX, Ferdinand and Isabella, and Charles V are current rulers of France, Spain, and the Holy Roman Empire!!!!! And the Pope is head of the Papal States!!!!!!!!!!!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 15 2006, 03:00 PM']a lot of weird carp.
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what's that supposed to mean????

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yes Cam we know you are a church scholar. But are we not allowed to have opinons if we do not have an education? Or are opinions less Valid? Because there are plenty of intelligent people who support Tradition and do know what they are talking about. I am only 14 and so i haven't reallly had the oportunity to educated myself.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

it means that killing people because of heresy is not something i would ever support.

[Vivacristorey]

I'm sure you DO know what you're talking about, but it's not necessary to forget charity.

~*sarah*~

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 15 2006, 05:05 PM']yes Cam we know you are a church scholar. But are we not allowed to have opinons if we do not have an education? Or are opinions less Valid? Because there are plenty of intelligent people who support Tradition and do know what they are talking about. I am only 14 and so i haven't reallly had the oportunity to educated myself.
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You are entitled to an opinion Sam. However, when you opinion is flawed, you need to submit and change that opinion, by learning from one who is more educated.

What do you have to say about "pro-choice" Catholics, that will add to the converstaion? If you have nothing to add, please stop spamming the thread with your friend.

Thanks. Stay on topic.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jan 15 2006, 03:05 PM']it means that killing people because of heresy is not something i would ever support.
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but all the europeans used to do it!!!! just look at the cathars!!! arent you glad the King of France got rid of them???

[Cam42]

[quote name='Vivacristorey' date='Jan 15 2006, 05:07 PM']I'm sure you DO know what you're talking about, but it's not necessary to forget charity.

~*sarah*~
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Let's not misuse charity. I was not being uncharitable. Charity also includes proper teaching and proper catechesis. Don't confuse charity with straightforwardness.

Thanks.....what do you have to offer to the topic?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Jan 15 2006, 04:08 PM']but all the europeans used to do it!!!! just look at the cathars!!! arent you glad the King of France got rid of them???
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we should probably stop posting in this thread.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Vivacristorey]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 15 2006, 04:09 PM']Let's not misuse charity.  I was not being uncharitable.  Charity also includes proper teaching and proper catechesis.  Don't confuse charity with straightforwardness.

Thanks.....what do you have to offer to the topic?
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your "straightforwardness" may have caused you to forget that other's opinions, no matter what thteir level of education, matter. that is all.

charity is loving and respecting God and loving and respecting neighbor. You seemed to me to have forgotten the latter.

[Cam42]

I did not, I assure you that. You'd know if I had.

Don't make assumptions that you can't defend.

You are not being charitable in your "seemings."

I am done discussing this with you, thanks.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jan 12 2006, 04:10 PM']Excuse me, did I say anything about Senators Kerry or Kennedy?  Or are you projecting that?  I didn't say anything about them.  Nor did I ever include an absolute, I believe that I said "most" not "all."  I believe that you have done the position of the bishop and me a great disservice and have projected something upon me that the good Bishop stated.

If by this statement:
  you mean to assume that I include Senators Kerry and Kennedy; I stand by what the canonists provide.  While I respect the OPINION of the bishop, I also respect the opinons of the canon lawyers that I have provided.  I daresay that you will have a hard time trying to make stick what the bishop posits in his OPINION.  Did he tell you that he would make public any statement of excommunication regarding Senators Kerry and Kennedy?

How do you reconcile the statements of the various canon lawyers, professors, and Vatican officials provided with that of one retired bishop?  Even if we assume that the good bishop is correct, so let's do, we cannot speak publicly about these excommunications (ie. "running about calling senators, etc. heretics) because they are not in the public forum. Excommunication [i]latae sententiae[/i] is part of the internal forum.  Also we have to understand that if there is an excommunication it is [i]in latae[/i]. The onus is on the person who is excommunicated to obey the legislation. There is no attempt to make a list. If a person approaches Holy Communion, the priest must assume that the person has repented and made an attempt to rectify their situation. 

This is opposed to excommunication [i]ferendae sententiae[/i], which is in the external forum.  An example of this would be Martin Luther's excommunication, or the excommunication of the bishops of the SSPX.  This type is indeed foreseen by the law as a penalty, but is inflicted on the culprit only by a judicial sentence; in other words, the delinquent is rather threatened than visited with the penalty, and incurs it only when the judge has summoned him before his tribunal, declared him guilty, and punished him according to the terms of the law.

This is what Edward Peters, Phil Gray, and David Carlin are getting at; they are saying that it would be very hard to substantially prove that one should be excommunicated [i]latae sententiae[/i].

I will support this statement and I will stand by it;  the Catholic Church has not relaxed her strict prohibition of all abortion; but, she has made it more definite. As to the penalties she inflicts upon the guilty parties, her present legislation was fixed by the Bull of Pius IX "Apostolicae Sedis". It decrees excommunication -- that is, deprivation of the Sacraments and of the Prayers of the Church in the case of any of her members, and other privations besides in the case of clergymen -- against all who seek to procure abortion, if their action produces the effect. Penalties must always be strictly interpreted. Therefore, while anyone who voluntarily aids in procuring abortion, in any way whatever, does morally wrong, only those incur the excommunication who themselves actually and efficaciously procure the abortion. And the abortion here meant is that which is strictly so called, namely, that performed before the child is viable. For no one but the lawgiver has the right to extend the law beyond the terms in which it is expressed. On the other hand, no one can restrict its meaning by private authority, so as to make it less than the received terms of Church language really signify. Now Gregory XIV had enacted the penalty of excommunication for abortion of a "quickened" child but the present law makes no such distinction, and therefore it must be differently understood.

Again, I respect the bishop's statemtent, however, if you are going to say that he admonishes me by public statement, then his silence cannot be admonition but rather [u]tacit approval[/u].
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Excuse me, but you did lead me and others to believe that you think lawmakers like John Kerry and Ted Kennedy where not heretics.

"I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate."

"Again, to call one who supports abortion a heretic is an incorrect view of the terminology."

"Show me where Canon Law calls pro-choice politicians heretics. I would like the Canon please. It is not there. I do have it straight."

And when asked by someone, "so a pro-choice catholic could be in heresy, if they knew that it was truth and say worked against it or denied it?"

You said "I don't think so."

Also Sir it is not very respectfull of you to the good Bishop to call his teaching "OPINION"

The Good Bishop also said you are wrong.

You said "I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying. Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor."


The Good Bishop's reply "Your friend is wrong. In the Doctrinal Note I referred to the Magisterium clearly states that the evil of abortion is an article of faith which must be with full interior assent."

The Bishop stated "someone like Senator Ted Kennedy or Senator John Kerry who not only deny the truth of the magisterial teachings about the evil of abortion are without a doubt formal heretics."

The keywords are "someone like" and "formal". Formal sounds pretty public. Also the good Bishop has publicly stated lawmakers "like" Kerry and Kennedy commit heresy.

Lastly communion can be denined to a unrepented sinner "like" Kerry or Kennedy.

Edited January 16, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Cam42]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jan 16 2006, 01:59 AM']Excuse me, but you did lead me and others to believe that you think lawmakers like John Kerry and Ted Kennedy where not heretics.

"I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate."

"Again, to call one who supports abortion a heretic is an incorrect view of the terminology."

"Show me where Canon Law calls pro-choice politicians heretics. I would like the Canon please. It is not there. I do have it straight."

And when asked by someone, "so a pro-choice catholic could be in heresy, if they knew that it was truth and say worked against it or denied it?"

You said "I don't think so."

Also Sir it is not very respectfull of you to the good Bishop to call his teaching "OPINION"

The Good Bishop also said you are wrong. 

You said  "I would posit that one who supports abortion, is at best guilty of incredulity. I don't think that most who support abortion are theologically obstinate. I believe that they refuse to assent to the revealed truth and that is essentially what you are saying. Part of this reasoning lies in the fact that proper catechesis of abortion on the local level is poor."
The Good Bishop's reply "Your friend is wrong. In the Doctrinal Note I referred to the Magisterium clearly states that the evil of abortion is an article of faith which must be with full interior assent."

The Bishop stated "someone like Senator Ted Kennedy or Senator John Kerry who not only deny the truth of the magisterial teachings about the evil of abortion are without a doubt formal heretics."

The keywords are "someone like" and "formal".  Formal sounds pretty public.  Also the good Bishop has publicly stated lawmakers "like" Kerry and Kennedy commit heresy.

Lastly communion can be denined to a unrepented sinner "like" Kerry or Kennedy.
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Not according to the Vatican.

[quote name='Catholic News Service']The Roman Catholic Church's official news service quoted an unnamed Vatican official on Tuesday as saying John Kerry was "not a heretic" for his stance on abortion rights.

The article by The Catholic News Service also quoted an unnamed Vatican official as saying Mr. Kerry was not about to be excommunicated because "you can incur excommunication" automatically "only if you procure or perform an abortion."[/quote]

A personal letter from a bishop is not a teaching. It is personal correspondance. Again, his published statement is a PROPOSAL and not an accepted teaching. So, at this point, it is his OPINION. I respect his opinion and I will not speak about that again. Please don't misrepresent his opinion again. Thank you.

I realize the good Bishop said that I was wrong and I believe that I acknowledged that. Let it go. And please point to where I have said that the evil of abortion does not have to be recognized with with full assent.

Again, point to where where the bishop's position has been ratified by Rome and I will change my tune. When you can point to a Vatican document or statement which says that a lawmaker like Kennedy or Kerry is a formal heretic then I will submit. Until then, I will respect the bishop's opinion and not defame him. I have not done so thus far and I will continue not to.

An apology is only meritous, if you show a marked change in attitude. I don't see that from you yet.

Incidentally did Bishop Gracida call out Senators Kennedy or Kerry specficially or did he say someone LIKE Kennedy or Kerry? I believe that my language is just as consistent as his. Please don't jump down my six because the bishop and I are using the same type of language.