Women In Ministry--ordination

[God Conquers]

Christ wanted us to be in Unity of Faith, as Paul said. Now, all Christians were of Unity in faith until 500 years ago. Every christian believed the same thing, from the time of the apostles, until the time of the reformation. Then, through politics and hot heads (as is always the way, and I won't discount the actions of the Devil here) that unity was shattered. Now there are 1 billion Christians who believe the same things (Catholics: if a Catholic believes something different than what the Church teaches they are either mistaken, ignorant(not in a negative way) or not Catholic) and nearly a billion more with a multitude (30 000+) of different beliefs.

[BLAZEr]

i suppose though if a woman can naturally be "the husband of but one wife"....

Oh, Lordy, please don't mention this to the Episcopalians . . . next thing you know they'll ordain a married lesbian who calls herself the husband, to be a bishop . . . :jawdrop: :shield: :punch:

[God Conquers]

Low fast one for the episcopalians.

[cmotherofpirl]

Oh, Lordy, please don't mention this to the Episcopalians . . . next thing you know they'll ordain a married lesbian who calls herself the husband, to be a bishop . . . :jawdrop:  :shield:  :punch:

Once you leave the infalliblity of the Catholic Church behind anything is possible.

Look at all those ministers who deny the basic facts of Christianity: Jesus's birth, life, and ressurection.

[DesiringMore]

Just as there are misconceptions and misunderstandings about Catholics there are just as many about Protestants. i would suggest your research before you say something you believe to be the truth especially about others you may not know anything about.

[dUSt]

Just as there are misconceptions and misunderstandings about Catholics there are just as many about Protestants. i would suggest your research before you say something you believe to be the truth especially about others you may not know anything about.

Hey DesiringMore,

Did I welcome you to phatmass yet? If not, welcome!

I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to misrepresent what you believe--but with so many different denominations of Protestantism, it's really hard for us to know, without "generalizing".

I love to research! Do you care to share with us what particular denomination you belong to? Is there somewhere online where we can find out what you believe--some type of statement of faith or something?

You can find out exactly what we believe by visiting several online catechisms (see the "Reading Room" link up top), or the vatican website. If you want us to be fair and know about what you believe, you gotta tell us!

God bless.

[DesiringMore]

Trurh is, i'm not Catholic. But i did grow up in the Catholic church. I am not for the whole "denomination" thing--i think it is what is in your heart and not necessarily what church you belong to. i have went to mass more times in the last month than my own church. I am involved in CL and my closest, dearest friends are Catholic. Despite our differences, it is the relationship with Jesus, the desire for more, the challenging of each other, the exhaltation of one's "i" and countless other things that draws us near to one another. :jawdrop: :D

[SevenSorrows]

just because one is not catholic doesn't mean they don't believe that it is the presence...there are so many differences among Catholics and Protestants but to be honest, even though one may not be Catholic, does not mean that they don't believe everything a Catholic believes....just a thought

First off, I am praying for you, I can see you are going to be a Catholic and that is amesome.

Second, if you believe in the "true presence" then you pretty much have to be Catholic cause pretty much all other denominations(besides 1-2) deny it. So why would you believe that it is Jesus and then deny yourself being able to receive jesus in the eucharist?

Third if a person is not Catholic, they certainly do not believe everything that a Catholic believes. Since no other religion on earth believes the things we believe, then you either believe us or don't believe us. How could you believe us and then deny us? To do this would be to deny God, thus damning yourself to hell. If the Catholic church is the true church, then it IS TRUTH and thus the truth of God, so if you have the truth of God, then you are Catholic and thus accept God. So how could you know the truth of God and then deny him??? (oops, well I guess the devil did)

[phatcatholic]

woh seven sorrows, lets try to be patient here. i think that "desiringmore" is trying the best he can, and that's all we can really ask of him.

that said, desiring, i would like to respond to the questions and comments you have posed in this thread so far:

i was interested in the question that "huh?" asked about women getting ordained. This question intrigued me to search the Bible and ask what you think about such scripture and the meaning behind such scripture..... Galatians 3:26-29 states "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor femal, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"....

i think this verse addresses everyone's right to be a part of the family of God moreso then it addresses everyone's right to be a priest. the verse begins w/ "you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." AMEN! i don't think any catholic would disagree w/ this. everyone "Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, female" can and do become sons and dauthers of God through baptism. secondly, the Church does not reject this fact when she denies them the priesthood. all have a right to the Family of God, but only men have the right to be priests. this post will be waaayy to long if i try to explain this further, so i direct you to the following articles:

--Gender Roles, Male Priests, Equality, and Feminism

--Dialogue On Peter's Marriage

--Women Priests?

--Women and the Priesthood

from this verse from galatians you turn to another question:

this question then influenced another one...i have read that holy orders is a sacrament and that women not being able to obtain this sacrament is infallible because you cannot change sacraments. So, where does the whole foundation of sacraments come from. is it scriptural b/c i know Catholics call them sacraments and Protestants have another word for them-ordinance- and they don't have as many other.

all seven of the Church's sacraments are inDouche scriptural. i will list a few verses for each and then direct you to some articles to learn more:

Baptism: John 3:5; Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:12-13; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Acts 2:38; 22:16

Confession/Reconciliation: Mat 8:6; 9:8; John 20:21-23; 1 John 1:9

Eucharist: John 6:51-56; 1 Cor 2:12-14; 1 Cor 10:16; 1 Cor 11:27,29

Confirmation: Acts 8:14–17; 9:17, 19:6; Heb 6:2

Marriage: Luke 16:18; Mark 10:11-12; Rom 7:2-3; 1 Cor 7:10, 12-15

Holy Orders (the Priesthood): 1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5; 1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15

Anointing of the Sick/Estreme Unction: Mark 6:13; Jas. 5:14-15; Matt. 8:17

of course, this is only some of the verses. for a thorough biblical defense of the sacraments, go here. for a more comprehensive defense of the sacraments, go here

from here you talk in length about "one true church" and the unity of the church:

which brings up another question, THE ONE TRUE CHURCH--"How deep is your faith if you don't accept Jesus' Church? Or do you accept another Church has the true Church?"--this statement was in another topic section and it made me think of this scripture--Ephesians 4:3-6 states "make every effortr to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. there is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called--one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all"

first off, AMEN to those verses! that is one of my most favorite citations in all of scripture, so excuse me if i get over-zealous here (this bit from ephesians hypes me up!). i don't mean to be offensive here, but i just don't see how this can be applied to Protestantism. i already explained in the "christianity.com" thread about how unity thru "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" is not as easy as it sounds. futhermore, look closely at this verse:

"make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit...."

unity of the spirit--that is very important. but, when i look at protestantism i see 20,000 denominations, which in itself is cause for question, but the clincher is this--every single one of those claims inspiration by the Holy Spirit to believe what they believe. to one the spirit says "sola fide." to another, the spirit says "sola scriptura." to another the spirit says "calvinist predestination." to another the spirit says "you must speak in tongues." the spirit is contradicting itself here. this definitely doesn't seem like "unity of spirit" to me.

"there is one body and one spirit..."

this part of the verse is SO important (shew! i need to calm down, sorry, hehe). protestants claim that they are one in a spiritual union. but this only fulfills half of the obligation. the verse here calls for a unity of body and spirit. a body is a visible thing, it is something concrete, something you can touch. now, one may reply that the word "body" here is used symbolically, as in a spiritual body. but, the fact that it separates the two into "one body" and "one spirit" shows that there is a definite distinction between the two, that there are two unions. the catholic church can stake claim to this unity. we are visibly one--we are one body--b/c we have one earthly leadership, a hierarchy of bishops and a pope to which we all adhere to. we are also one body in the sacraments and in the mass. the same elements exist in every single mass held on earth.

our mystical union comes in our united belief. you will never find St. John Catholic Church teaching one thing, and St. Peter's Church down the street teaching something else. our mystical union is also seen in the one Spirit that sanctifies us in one baptism and who protects the entire Church from falling into error.

can Protestantism really claim such a unity. i could maaayyyybee be stretched into believing a unity in spirit (even though i think of shown that this isn't so), but a unity in body is impossible.

"just as you were called to one hope when you were called...."

even this one hope means different things to different protestant denominations. afterall this refers to a hope for salvation. but, this type of hope does not even exist to all those who believe in "assurance of salvation." where is their need to hope if they are assured of heaven already? this "one hope" is also dependent on how we define salvation. as i also showed in the "christianity.com" thread, salvation means many different things to many different denominations. so, i don't see "one hope" in protestantism either.

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism...."

is their one Lord in protestantism? many denominations define this "one Lord" in many different ways. pentecostals, for example, don't even believe in the trinity, which is paramount in describing our Lord. this example alone should suffice, but there are more. calvinists think the Lord chose a certain number of elect, and damns the rest. the Lord saves some upon a profession of faith, but others only when they speak in tongues, or only when they are baptized. this does not look like the same Lord to me.

is their one faith in protestantism? not when so many protestants put their faith in so many different things. some have faith that God will always heal everyone who asks for it, and when He doesn't its for lack of faith. some have faith that you WILL speak in tongues when u recieve the Holy Spirit. some have faith that all they need is faith, and they are saved forever. some have faith in a one-person God. others have faith in a three-person God.

with all the definitions of baptism and wether it is required, protestants are not united in one baptism either. some say its only symbolic. others say thru baptism ur sins are not erased, just covered over like a coat. others say that all ur sins are wiped away. still others say that baptism is not necessary at all. way to many different baptisms to be one...

does this all make sense? again, i'm sorry if i was a little over-zealous or offensive. those verses just really mean alot to me. now, on to your final comments:

i also read this from a professor that commented on this scripture that i found enfascinating, "in the New Testament Letter that provides the fullest undersatnding of the Church, Paul makes an appeal to maintain the unity of the faith, and identifies the seven elemtes of unity. a deepened understanding of these vital elements by all denomination of believers could well provide a ground for that unity of the Church of the living God that is so urgent--a unity amid diveristy. certainly a SAMENESS in every detail is not the expectation of the One who has never created any two things exactly alike. certainly differing styles of worship, for example, are of great benefit, making their appeal to different types of individuals. it is fervently hoped that in the days ahead more and more GOd's peple will speak not of Anglican religion, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, etc. but rather all denominations as BRANCHES OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH--'the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'Jude3"

you have to have "unity" first, before you can have "unity amid diversity." the catholic church has this unity (as i have already shown). we have this diversity as well. there are many different traditions w/in the catholic church besides the Roman one. and while we all believe the same things, we practice and celebrate these beliefs differently: thru different songs, different languages, different feast days, different customs and traditions. the glory of catholicism is that it encompasses so many truly different people. for example, w/ the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, U.S. whites usually don't make a big deal about it. but mexicans LOVE it. they have parades, and parties, and picnics and big celebrations b/c they relate to our Lady in this way. that just shows how catholics are all different--yet all the same.

for protestants, i think this unity needs to be established before one can even begin to talk about diversity. there must be both at the same time--"unity and diversity"--but there is not.

in another post, you asked why catholics believe that we are the ONE TRUE church. i will address this in a later post. i hope that what i have written so far has been helpful.

Good Luck and God Bless,

phatcatholic

[BLAZEr]

oh my goodness, Phatcatholic, please, try and tackle things one piece at at time . . . you're reminding me of Ironmonk, and I just began ignoring all of his posts because they were so long and wide.

Part of a discussion is that it involves other people, not just a long diatribe . . . we know it's the Church's teachings, but it's like saying to someone who has a question about one thing "Here's the catechism, call me when you're done."

And by the way, this is just contructive criticism, I like you here at Phatmass, I just don't want to start ignoring you because you're posts are 10,000 words long . . .

peace

[DesiringMore]

woh seven sorrows, lets try to be patient here. i think that "desiringmore" is trying the best he can, and that's all we can really ask of him.

Just to let everyone know...i am a woman....not a he...just thought i'd clear those things up :D ....as for sevensorrows...comments like the one you've made makes a person want to turn back now and not going any further...it is not that i believe or don't believe Catholicism, but more that what i don't understand i am seeking answers to so that i know whether or not Catholicism is where i am suppose to be....i am a junior studying religious studies...studying to be a pastor,youth pastor, actually, i'm open to wherever God leads me...if i believe that women can be in the ministry such as a pastor or head of a church, then can i realy just lay that aside to follow a denomination that believes otherwise???? i'm not sure....

[cmotherofpirl]

I also work with the Church youth group.

AS a Catholic woman, I start with the Bible and Church history.

Did Jesus call any women to be an Apostle? no.

Did Jesus have women followers ? yes.

Did the early Church ever have women priestesses? absolutely not.

Did women have roles in the Church? of course.

Was Jesus just a wimp who wouldn't buck the cultural norm to make women priestessses? no.

Does the Church have the authority to start ordaining women because of political correctness? no

AS a Catholic we know a priest is personae christi ( in the person of Christ) as he fulfills his priestly duties.

Can a woman be personae Christi (act in place of the SON of God) at Mass? no.

A priest is married to the Church, who is called the Bride of Christ.

Can a woman be married to the Bride of Christ? Nope.

Can a woman counsel others, and preach and teach about God? sure but not in the role of a priest.

A priest has specific functions: sacraments.

Am I equal to a man? ABSOLUTELY!

I am a child of God,and an heir to the Kingdom, and a member of the Body of Christ.

But a man's role (if he is a priest) is to bring Jesus Christ into the world in a sacramental way.

A woman's role ( if she is a mother ) is to bring life ( creation) into the world.

Do women place important roles in the Church? Yes

Edited December 17, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[phatcatholic]

desiringmore....was my post helpful? or was it too long to take in all at once.

pham.....i decided not to break it up b/c i was essentially only responding to one post of hers. but, if my posts are intimidating or if they alienate people, i suppose i could break them up more.

what do u all think?

holla back,

phatcatholic

[DesiringMore]

Thank you phatcatholic...although long, it has been helpful....please be patient b/c i am trying to understand...i desire to understand...

[cmotherofpirl]

desiringmore....was my post helpful? or was it too long to take in all at once.

pham.....i decided not to break it up b/c i was essentially only responding to one post of hers. but, if my posts are intimidating or if they alienate people, i suppose i could break them up more.

what do u all think?

holla back,

phatcatholic

Little bits are easier to digest than whole gulps.