Dating

[jgirl]

That's a really good way of putting it!

[Franziskaner]

Lillabet,

I don't know what OpenMic is. I tend to agree with you about not entering a courtship phase while discerning. I know that it is common for chastity speakers and chastity books to tell a male and female to not to spend time alone outside of a group setting. I believe this is very good advice for a high schooler who has not experienced any mistakes, a.k.a mortal sins of a sexual nature, yet since he wouldn't know what gets him in trouble and what keeps him out of trouble. I mentioned that I am 33. I also mentioned that I went on 12 dates with someone and never kissed her. This also means we never hugged except to say "hello" and "goodbye". We never held hands and I never put my arm around her. We never jumped into deeply emotional conversations either. For example, before this one young lady and I ever went on a first date she exclaimed that she will not date a guy who secretly views porn. Even though I don't view porn, I thought that that is no topic for two people to be discussing that early on since it is such an intimate question. My answer to her was plain and simple, if a guy viewed porn in secret, then you wouldn't know. Generally a girl like her who does not know what is appropriate and what is not appropriate on an emotional level is not someone I would date. I only date women who are emotionally and spiritually mature which means they can handle restarining the conversations to an appropriate level.

Speaker Dave Sloan (see www.godofdesire.com) starts his talk "Dating is not a dirty word." In other words, spending time alone (for adults) and having a conversation over dinner is not a sin and actually is something that Our God, the God of Desire, the God who created our desires would encourage adults to do so long as we treat each other with the utmost respect. Even Christopher West when discussing Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body says that we need to remove our veil of thinking of our sexuality as if it were something dirty. God made us male and God made us female and He made us attracted to one another. Christopher West goes so far as to say that if a male and female are alone in a room with the door closed, our minds should not be so jaded by society that we assume something funny is going on in there. Purity is possible and it begins in the heart. Of course we are human and I generally don't sit in a room with a woman with the door closed because I know the limitations of purity in my heart. That would be too intimate of a situation for me and for her, especially since I am nowhere near entering a courtship phasse with anyone.

Going straight into a courtship phase without first being in a non-exclusive friendship is a "trial marriage" that is very common in our society today. I'm not into that. That is why I said marriage is marriage, courtship is courtship, non-exclusive dating is non-exclusive dating.

The way I see it, if you take off all of these rules and just observe the natural beautiful way some people fall in love, it happens like this: A guy is a good Catholic and is involved at church, does some volunteering, goes to some social events. Most things are groups or after a group event, a few friends might go for coffee. Sometimes it just might be two guys going for coffee, sometimes two girls, sometimes a guy and a girl, sometimes a group of people. All in all, this guy is open to dating someone because he is single but doesn't have anyone in mind because he either doesn't know some of the women well enough yet or is not attracted to the ones he does know for whatever reason. Okay, so a few months go by and he notices that he really enjoys one of the women's company and he asks her out on a date. If she says no, then ideally both are mature and life goes on as normal and they still enjoy each other's company. If she says yes, then when they go to coffee instead of it being a "friendship" meeting, it becomes a "friendship dating" meeting. Physically nothing changes, conversation-wise nothing changes, but he might flatter her a little bit more. He also can buy her a card or a small inexpensive gift or a flower. Nothing too big of a deal and nothing too intense. At the same time if he enjoys another girl's company, preferable form another city, he may ask her to go on a date. If the woman that he has begun "friendship dating" knows a guy that she is interested in getting to know better other than him, then she may go out with him too sometimes. There is no everyday phone calling talking for hours, there is no opening up of your deepest yearnings, it is just relaxed, not intense. Really other than the little romantic gifts, the only difference is he is buying the coffee. This NEVER means that they cut themselves off completely from the groups they are in. Both of them continue to be involved at church, both of them continue to do some charity work... feed the hungry, clothe the needy, visit the imprisoned.. basic Jesus-inspired stuff. It is important for them to always keep their brothers and sisters in their lives for it is how well we love all of our bros and sisters that we can see each other's capacity to freely love. Eventually, either the "friendship dating" phase dissappears or receds back into "friendship" and nothing changes much, or it grows into something more. If it recedes back to friendship, nothing changes except she starts paying for herself and they can try to keep the conversation at a lower intesity level as well as he will not be buying her cards. THIS POINT IS A KEY POINT - Okay, this is as far as I think anyone should go who is considering a vocational life and I will explain more in the next paragraph. Now, if the guy's relationship with one of these women is going really well and she is willing to go to an exclusive stage, they can agree on this. Either one can still back out at anytime since they are NOT married. What DOES change is the intensity gets kicked up a notch in the conversation. They start truly DISCERNING whether or not they are compatible as lifelong partners, but they still make sure to keep it light and fun when they can since God wants us to enjoy eahc other's gifts. After a little period of this they can kick it up a notch and enter into formal courtship and go over some marriage preparation handbooks and see where they are headed. If they determine they are not compatible, then they may end it. If the end it, does this mean that the guy does not have a vocation to marriage? No. This means that the process starts over again and he hangs out with his friends (though he NEVER should have negelected his friends in the first place). Maybe should I say, he continues hanging out with his friends. The cycle can continue until he finally meets the woman who God intended him to meet and they get engaged, marry, and have lots of babies. Of course there could be some break ups after engagements, but I've never been engaged so I wouldn't know about that though it does seem to be a real part of life.

I was keeping that simple. Now let's name some stages in the story above. Stage 1, I'll call "Friendship". Stage 2, I'll call "Friendship Dating". Stage 3, Exclusive Dating. Stage 4, Courtship. Stage 5, Engagement. Stage 6, Marriage. The key point I mentioned in the story above is between Friendship Dating and Exclusive Dating.

We could modify the story above to include the formation of a single man: He is in the friendship stage and he becomes open to the possibility of priesthood for the first time in his life. It is scary, but he is willing to do what God's will is, if he only knew what it was. The guy kicks up his praying a notch so he can hear God. He starts visitng the Blessed Sacrament, he meets a vocational diretor. At the same time, the guy naturally progresses to dating some of the nice women, the same as in the story above. He keeps the intensity of it low. He increases his intensity in discerning the priesthood. He visits some orders for a come-and-see. He meets with other men discerning the priesthood once a week to pray with them. Through all of this, he continues being active at church, doing volunteering, and hanging out with friends. Now we are at the KEY POINT. It is time to progress to an exclusive stage with a woman whose company he enjoys very much. As a matter of fact, when he sees her, he sees God's beauty revealed to him. Not only that, they have teamed up in their volunteering and can see that they do well together and carry out God's will in union splendidly. When he looks at her, he thanks God for making him a man and placing the tender in desire for her in his heart (very Christopher West / JPII). Such is life, we have a decision to make. Which progressed faster (naturally), his discernment process to religious vocation or his calling to court her?

Let's say that he feels he has not gotten to a point where he has finished his discernment process. I believe it is his obligation to God to continue the discernment process until he has an answer. This does not mean he has to enter the seminary, but he needs to give God more time to work on his heart. If this is the case, then he needs to not yet move to the exclusive stage with his lady friend. This may perturb her and since she is dating other guys she may decide to exclusively date one of them. That is fine. This is living life and still putting God first for the guy. Perhaps, she has a huge freely-loving heart and an enormous amount of patience and she will continue in a non-exclusive stage for a few more months with him. This means both of them will continue being friends with others and will continue dating others. If enough time goes by and their relationship does not continue to grow, they must consider ending it or reducing it to friendship status (which happens naturally when she starts liking another guy more than him or vice versa).

Let's say that he has his answer from God and knows that no matter who he is currently dating, he is certain he is called to a marital vocation. Then he may move to an exclusive stage with his love interest. He still needs to keep praying as much as he was before because foormation is EXACTLY the same for a religous vocation as it is for a marital vocation.

Let's say that he has his answer from God and he knows that no matter who he is currently dating, he is certain he is called to a religious vocation. He needs to knock all "friendship dating" relationships back to "friendships" and not have anymore "friendship dating" encounters. This is less natural and more analytical and controlled than anything before but is necessary to move forward in the direction of his calling. He may enter a seminary, etc. If you saw the movie on TV recently about JPII, it seems he did have a friendship with a woman right up until he chose to become a priest and the viewer was left uncertain if it was his girlfriend or friend. She did not disappear from his life just because he became a priest, bishop, and pope. This is part of what makes him a great man (if the TV depiction was accurate). JPII gets love moreso than any other human (not human/God) I have ever read about.

A priest must love. A priest must understand relationships in order to counsel relationships. A priest must be connected to his parishoners if he is Diocesan. A priest must be connected to his students if he is a teacher. Priesthood is not about sitting behind closed doors hiding frm people for fear of getting to close to them. Priesthood is about walking among the people and being an example of love to them. If a man does not know how to have a pure and free relationship with a woman, then what kind of priest would he make? We have had enough priests with social disorders who have become priests to try to hide from society and their society-related problems. Jesus lived in this world. Jesus played with children. Jesus loved Mary Magdalene in a way she had never been loved by a man before. Priests are to imitate Jesus. Priests shall befriend their Mary Magdalene's. We need more normal priests. We need more normal guys to become priests. Men who know the world and live in the world, yet are able to attain a proper example of what it means to be holy. Priests who invite people in rather than cast them out.

Okay, it is important to say that generally priests have to worry about scandal and it is a priests practice to never be in a car driving alone with a woman or to only be alone with a woman if they are in a public place. Even better is to only be in a public place with two or more women, not one. This is not because he cannot trust himself to be alone with a woman, this is only because people are people and they talk. The woman might make up a story. Someone who is jealous might make up a story, etc.

A priest is a priest, a seminarian is a seminarian, a discerner is a discerner. I think probably a seminarian should be careful about how much time he spends alone with a woman, but not be as careful as a priest. If we are treating the women in our lives like sisters, then there can be nothing wrong with that. I think someone who is discerning has even less to worry about. If a woman won't date a man who is discerning the priesthood, then there is no reason for him to try to convince her since either that is just her preference or she might not be mature enough to be free.

Priesthood = Marriage
Seminarian = Exclusive Dating, Courtship, Engagement
Discernment = Friendship Dating

Priesthood, Marriage, Seminarian, Exclusive Dating, Courtship, Engagement, all of these = Friendship

Discernement = "I don't know, but I am open to God's will"
Discernment = "What is God's will?"
Discernment = "I am going to increase my prayer life to hear God's will"

If someone is open to marriage and open to religious vocation and wants to let God work on him, then the only way is to live life somewhat naturally and to move towards potential marriage and to move towards God. Religion is not about hiding form life. Religion is about immersing yourself in it. Life is where you will find God's glory until....

Heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 1, 2006 by Franziskaner

[OLAM Dad]

Franziskaner,

You're old enough
You're experienced enough
You clearly are wise enough

So...

What's stopping you? What frightens you?

[uruviel]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='Dec 27 2005, 04:01 PM']Thank you both for your advice!

I'm not asking for myself, really ... just inquiring in general about what other people have been hearing.  I made the decision not  to date while discerning, and I truly haven't regretted it. It's been a real blessing for me, clearing my head of emotional clutter and giving me a more objective perspective of what God wants vs. what I'm "feeling."

My strategy:
I started seriously discerning my vocation right after I was Confirmed, and I knew, intuitively, that I didn't want to complicate matters by  dating anyone while I was doing that.  So I bought an inexpensive  little silver ring and wore it on my ring finger.  When guys "make a move" so to speak, I can just point to my ring, smile, and say "I'm taken."  Some guys might see the ring and not make a move to begin with. It's a polite and easy way of declining, I think.

(Although I had some explaining to do when the people I know noticed it. I don't discuss my vocation with a lot of people in the "real" world ... so I usually just say it's a chastity ring, which it sort of is.) It worked for me, and I'm pretty sure of my vocation because I gave myself the time and space to figure it out.

OLAMdad... by dating, I mean the casual stuff that bambini my age typically engage in. Although, by that definition, I would probably not be for "dating" in any case, discerning or not. I feel like young people shouldn't be going on private outings with one another until they're at a point in their lives where they're ready to consider actually getting married.  You're right, courting is a better term.
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oh ok, I wasnt sure if this was speaking in terms of yourself. I personally believe it is not wise to date while discerning for myself, but that might not be just right for everyone.
The ring is a good idea,

"clearing my head of emotional clutter and giving me a more objective perspective of what God wants vs. what I'm "feeling.""
That's exactly right, that's what I want. To clear my own head so that I am discern and make a wise discision. Now, it is a major choice to enter somewhere, but I believe it would be ok to enter unsure and figure out that you don't belong there and leave, than not enter and wonder forever.

[Franziskaner]

OLAM Dad,

Thank you for the compliments. I think I am wise enough to know I am not wise enough if that makes sense. A lot of the stuff I wrote is a mix of materiel I have read, speakers I have heard, life experience, and meditation. Personally, I am not very far in the discernment process time wise. I am meeting the Diocesan vocational director tomorrow for the first time for lunch. Before making that appointment, I had a personal friend who was a priest and we have been discerning together but neither of us know what God wants from me yet. He has said we need men like me to be good husbands and fathers and other times has let me know that we need priests with minds like mine too. There is a prayer group I need to get in touch with of other discerning men and I think that is going to help too.

I'm very busy at work as well as facilitating a Theology of the Body class and hosting nationally-recognized speakers. I also started a new Chastity Task Force for our area and have finally found a few others who are interested in joining our core team. I am writing a book on Catholic Dating and have been asked to speak as a chastity speaker. In spite of all of this, I have been able to make time to read the Bible and pray about 2 hours a day. I am maintaining and forming relationships with priests and go for a meal one-on-one with a priest approximately weekly. I also spend time with women one-on-one and that really helps me learn to be a brother. Obviously God is working on me and the Holy Spirit is guiding me and our faith community is reaping the benefits of his work as we speak. I have really been feeding our TOB study group and they are spiritually hungry so that has been a beautiful thing.

I have been growing in my faith for years by moving in baby steps and it seems like by doing it that way, the changes in me are more permanent. I think by moving judiciously, then my decisions will be wise. I spent last night talking to a spiritual female friend about this stuff and she helped clarify some thoughts for me. A month ago I said something like this, "Maybe since I am 33 and haven't found a wife, I should look into being a priest because it isn't like I'm having any luck the other way." now I say "Maybe the meaning behind me being single right now is because God intends for me to become a priest." The difference might seem subtle, but it is HUGE and genuine. It's almost like God has been calling me all along but I didn't want to hear Him. She asked me if I was confused and I said Yes. She said "God is a god of certainty." I said "God is certain of His will, but I am not certain of His will because I am not God." She agreed. The bad thing is that a month ago I was feeling very calm and very patient but since then I have become stressed and I grind my teeth and my jaw is tense. This does not sound like a healthy spiritual experience to me. The best part of it all is that praying so much is offsetting the stress. I use an anology to explain the stress. I think that infants grow so fast that it is stressful on their bodies (debatable, but that's my stance). Also, the ancient Jews believed if a person saw God, he/she would die. This is because He is so awesome it is overwhelming. To know God better is a good thing but it can be overwhelming when you are exposed to God in a big way in a short period of time. This is analogical to the stress I feel. I am gaining so much theological knowledge as well as a heightened spiritual awareness that every day is like my first day with knowledge; what I know today makes it seem like yesterday I was a fool. It is affecting my dreams as well as my consciousness. I'm really digging it, but it is a bit hard on my body. I'm going with it but also waiting for that sense of serenity.

I've just begun looking into the different orders by reading a book about them on my lunch break so I have not gone on a come-and-see yet. I need to find a conservative, orthodox order if I am to do this so that I receive a good formation. One reason I am going around meeting high-level diocesan priests is because I want to see what I would be getting myself into. It is obvious that a lot of our priests do not practice chastity based on the results of court cases of child molestations. I have also met priests who do not revere the sacraments. Priests who will advise a promiscous male to use a condom... Priests who advise people to go to Communion while in a state of mortal sin by confessing their sins straight to God rather than going to Confession. A lot of these priests call themselves orthodox and claim that most priests feel as they do. I have to discern how I would fit into a diocese like this. I am not afraid to be the voice of chastity in a diocese like this but wonder what a vow of obedience would mean when making it in front of a liberal bishop. I have been in the corporate world and am used to bureacracies that are bigger than me and the Church is bigger than life itself. I think I handle what is thrown my way in a humble, yet evangelical way (on my good days). I do have to see where I fit in in this Diocese and perhaps it is better to be as a member of a parish with no vow of obedience. I am not one to move to a different diocese but more one to work on positive reform from within. It is sad that chastity and reform are being used in the same sentence when talking about the heirarchy of the Church, but there is at least some truth in what I am discussing. I don't think I am afraid of anything, but more contemplative. I guess that is why we use the word discerning.

I have applied to be a youth minister at a parish that received publicity for having two male gay parents of children in their school. I think it would make complete sense for God to place me in that parish because they could use a straight male who believes in male-female relationships and who is chaste to spread the word of God. This is not a criticism of the parish or school since they simply had a difficult situation they had to deal with and they did what they could. My reason for telling you this is to show you that I am more interested in God's will than any kind of fear.

Hopefully some of what I wrote is relevant to dating and discerning since there is a bit about chastity in what I wrote.

To answer your question, if I was to enter an order, I have a fear of the vow of poverty. I know I could avoid this by becoming a Diocesan priest, but I also know that taking a vow of poverty will help me to imitate Jesus which is one of the main points of becoming a priest. God will work on me in time and fears will be relieved and answers will come.

The option of being a husband is appealing to me. I was not raised in a home that EVER said the rosary as a family. We did go to Mass on Sundays and pray at meals though. I think if I was to have children, with the type of Catholic upbringing I would give my children, we would end up with more than one sister or priest. I would like to have 12 "disciples" of my own because I would like to modify the state of the world by raising my children to be pure and kind-hearted men and women. I think I am getting off topic. Sorry guys!

[Franziskaner]

I agree with everything said. What I wrote is probably what makes sense to me. If it makes sense for someone else to not date so that they have further clarity, then they are one step ahead to becoming a religious than I am. I wish everyone the best of luck in their discernment. I think it is all very exciting!

[stuckinamo]

i think that it is important to date some while discerning or before entering any sort of religious life........ however, i feel like a hypocrite because i just don't feel called to be in a relationship with anyone! i can't even picture it!! Odd, yes, I understand this. But I'm only 16 and I am sure that that may change in the future.

Reading everyone's thoughts was really wonderful and very informative. It's neat to read all of these different thoughts. Our Lord is truly wonderful! and all of this is reminding me of an awesome quote from Blessed Mother Teresa:

"What you are doing
I may not be able to do....
What I am doing
you may not be able to do....
But all of us together
are doing
something beautiful for God."

God bless you all.
Peace & love in Christ,
mj

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

Is it okay to date while discerning? ABSOLUTELY NOT

Is it okay to discern while dating? By all means!

What is the difference?

I think this discussion has been going through a confusion of the two.

If someone is seriously discerning religious life, then dating is such a bad idea, that they cannot focus on the purity of the discernment. Men and women in formation in monasteries, seminaries, and convents, just should not be dating. That is absurd. I think the same thing goes for young men and women, who have come to make the decision, even though, for whatever reason their circumstances prevent them from immediately entering a religious order. Like education, debt, or family or something.

On the other side of the coin, you have all sorts of young folks who want a romantic relationship, and want to open themselves up to the idea of religious life. These are people who have not come to an absolute decision in their life vocation. But are doing well for themselves, by allowing themselves to test the waters. Having a healthy and holy relationship with a member of the opposite sex is an enriching experience. But the desire to give themselves to God more persists, and perhaps they visit a seminary, monastery, convent, house of formation. Perhaps they read stories of the saints, perhaps they involve themselves more in church. At this stage of discernment, dating is a good idea. The other stage of discernment is an advanced stage, and should not include dating.

SHALOM

[uruviel]

Yes God works miracles in different people, and all are different miracles!
You are still very young, and to be in a relationship may appeal to you as you grow, only God knows!
But, I believe if you did date while discerning, it would be healthy for your spiritual life to you and your partner, aka the one you are dating, to pray together, be open with each other about praying in front of each other and about religous aspects. To make plans so that you know what may happen if this relationship for any reason doesn't work out.

[uruviel]

Yes I believe that if you have a great appeal to the religous life, and you start dating, then it can really mess with you mentally. You are be tugged at at both ends, becaues that yearn to give yourself to God has not yet fully left, but your love for your partner is still there as well, it makes the discions very difficult and stressing

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='uruviel' date='Jan 1 2006, 09:14 PM']But, I believe if you did date while discerning, it would be healthy for your spiritual life to you and your partner,
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There may not be an absolute, but i think we need to come to a clear consensus that dating while seriously discerning is a real problem to yourself and your partner. Discerning as one is regularly dating is a good thing...

But i just don't really see how someone can really get to the heart of their religious vocation when they are dating someone. But like I said, when someone is loosely looking into and praying about it, its not such a problem.

It goes one way, but not the other.

SHALOM

Edited January 2, 2006 by MC IMaGiNaZUN