Myles Domini Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Musing just now I had a thought. There are so many books out about facing East during the Mass, it has been decisively settled that this is a tradition of the Church which is so old nobody knows when it began, and morever the Roman Missal assumes that the priest will face East whilst saying Mass. So with that in mind, why does it not happen? Anyone care to speculate? INXC Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 why would people do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted December 27, 2005 Author Share Posted December 27, 2005 (edited) [url="http://www.adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html"]The Altar and the Direction of Liturgical Prayer[/url] An excerpt from "Spirit of the Liturgy" by Joseph Ratzinger INXC Myles Edited December 27, 2005 by Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cappie Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Our Cathedral is about 150 years old . The "old" High Altar which is still in existence was built in the late 1800's. It has always faced in the direction of the Cathedral... North Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted December 27, 2005 Author Share Posted December 27, 2005 The literal direction of many churches is not East indeed only the Eastern Churches are that faithful to Tradition. However, the conept of liturgical Eastness has dominated even Roman Catholicism for over millenia up until the post-conciliar period and it is this liturgical Eastness that the Church would do well to revive: [quote]The self-enclosed circle The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is locked into itself. The common turning toward the East was not a "celebration toward the wall"; it did not mean that the priest "had his back to the people": the priest himself was not regarded as so important. For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian Liturgy the congregation looked together "toward the Lord". As one of the fathers of Vatican II's Constitution on the Liturgy, J.A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession toward the Lord. They did not lock themselves into a circle, they did not gaze at one another, but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens, for the Christ who comes to meet us.... But is this not all romanticism and nostalgia for the past? Can the original form of Christian prayer still say something to us today, or should we try to find our own form, a form for our own times? Of course, we cannot simply replicate the past. Every age must discover and express the essence of the liturgy anew. The point is to discover this essence amid all the changing appearances. It would surely be a mistake to reject all the reforms of our century wholesale. When the altar was very remote from the faithful, it was right to move it back to the people. In cathedrals this made possible the recovery of the tradition of the altar at the crossing, the meeting-point of the nave and the presbyterium. It was also important clearly to distinguish the place for the Liturgy of the Word from the place for the strictly Eucharistic liturgy. For the Liturgy of the Word is about speaking and responding, and so a face-to-face exchange between proclaimer and hearer does make sense. In the Psalm the hearer digests what he has heard, takes it into himself, and transforms it into prayer, so that it becomes a response. Turn to the East is essential On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue, but of common worship, of setting off towards the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle, but the common movement forward expressed in a common direction for prayer.... Joseph Ratzinger 'Spirit of the Liturgy' [/quote] INXC Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_angels Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 I agree that there is a "liturgical East" compared to an actual physical East. The question is, what possible reason is there for encouraging the confusion among people? Consider my usual college church, which has the congregants completely surrounding the altar. Clearly, this is an interpretation of the "versus populum" concept to oppose a "liturgical East." Why should we encourage a practice which has imposed connotations against an ideal? Then again, the Vatican needs to put its money where its mouth is. If the ad orientem posture is to be encouraged, or even flourish, it needs to, itself, celebrate ad orientem at public papal masses and such. Moreover, the ad orientem posture is consonant with contemporary worship principles. Consider the Taize community where, during the liturgy, everyone faces the same direction. I would definitely be for building a church without pews (except perhaps in a handicapped area at the back) but with low sitting cushions so people would kneel on the floor. Here's the deal, though, until the Congregation revises the GIRM so that what is written about and for the liturgy actually makes a difference in how it is performed, they really can't complain when abuses occur, nor will anything to "encourage" the ad orientem possible be viable. Just read the silly thing, there is a loophole for almost every rubric and text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akalyte Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 My priest says the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, and when he does he faces the east during the liturgy of the Eucharist. I think its beautiful.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 this one church i go to the High altar faces west. but it doesn't really matter because no one uses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 (edited) The orientation "Ad Populum" is not unknown in Roman history: [quote]Today, as the altar usually has a retable and a tabernacle, the priest when standing before it turns his back to the people; so that when he greets them with "Dominus vobiscum" he is obliged to turn round. The Bishop would be hidden on his "cathedra" at the back of the apse, and could hardly follow the ceremonies, therefore his throne, as well as the stalls of the clergy, have been moved to places before the altar. But if we wish to understand the ancient positions, it will help us to remember that at that time the altar was a "table" (hence its name of "mensa") of wood or stone, forming either a solid block or else raised on four feet, but in any case without a tabernacle; so that the officiating priest would face towards the people, as he does today at "San Clemente."In our own churches, of course, he officiates on the other side of the altar; the Gospel side being the left and that of the Epistle the right. --Rt. Rev. Dom Fernand Cabrol, "Mass of the Western Rites" (1934), cited [url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixa.html"]HERE[/url][/quote] Edited January 8, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 [quote name='Akalyte' date='Jan 8 2006, 08:31 AM']My priest says the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, and when he does he faces the east during the liturgy of the Eucharist. I think its beautiful.. [right][snapback]849365[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Where do you go to Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akalyte Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 (edited) [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 8 2006, 08:39 AM']Where do you go to Mass? [right][snapback]849386[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Saint Jude's Catholic parish, ran by the Fathers of the oratori of Saint Phillip Nerri. Edited January 8, 2006 by Akalyte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 [quote name='Akalyte' date='Jan 8 2006, 12:27 PM']Saint Jude's Catholic parish, ran by the Fathers of the oratori of Saint Phillip Nerri. [right][snapback]849481[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 550 miles too far from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAM Dad Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Which mass does he normally say in this manner? If it's not to pharr (sorry, couldn't resist) from my house I'd like to bring the family. I'm of the personal opinion that the Friars that say the Mass at the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament should be hired by the USCCB to train all of our priests in this country how to say the Novus Ordo with reverence and beauty. I know, I'm dreaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLAM Dad Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jan 8 2006, 12:35 PM']550 miles too far from here. [right][snapback]849486[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I just checked too. That's 9 hours for me. I love Texas but sometimes it's just to big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 Are you in the DFW metroplex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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