Myles Domini Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 30 2005, 10:22 PM'] lets give the breaf version of that: Many Martyers died protecting their icons. [right][snapback]840220[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Dont be so cynical the controversy was about a lot more than that. Underpinning is a question of whether or not it is possible for man to encounter God (not indirectly as in natural theology) through the things of the world. Hence, the end of the iconoclastic period is marked by the feastday of 'the triumph of Orthodoxy' and the week afterwards in the Eastern churches which celebrates the memorial of Palamas is regarded as a 'second triumph of Orthodoxy' (cf Philokalia vol 4) because both disputes were interested in how man as a spacio-temporal being can be said to really [i]know[/i] God. INXC Myles Edited December 30, 2005 by Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 Well the Byzantine Emperor was losing battles with the Turkish. He was convinced that God was punishing him because his people worshiped "Idols". So he had them all destroyed and killed people who would not give them up. The Bishop of Rome supported the use of icons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted December 30, 2005 Share Posted December 30, 2005 I know the history of the controversy EENS but your glossing over the period by ignoring the theological concerns of those great saints like Sts John Damascene and Theodore the Studite who wrote in defence of the use of icons. INXC Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 sorry i don't really know anything about those saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Dec 27 2005, 11:18 AM']It's only one of many problems at this parish. I remember that nothing was said in the bulletin about John Paul II after his death. None of the liturgical reforms have been implimented. The Nicene Creed is never said. The list goes on... [right][snapback]836829[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm sorry. Even Protestant churches say it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 30 2005, 11:00 PM']sorry i don't really know anything about those saints. [right][snapback]840310[/snapback][/right] [/quote] St John of Damascus aka St John Damascene is regarded by the Occident as the last of the Fathers and is extensively quoted throughout the Summa Theologica (indeed, I think 3rd as much as any Father next to Augustine and Pseudo-Denys). He has also been proclaimed by the Holy See as one of the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church. Perhaps his most work is his 'Exact exposition of the Orthodox faith' but he wrote much more including many beautiful hymns. St Theodore the Studite as his name suggests was a monk of studion in Constantinople. A zealous defender of true doctrine he fought restlessly against Imperial interference in the church preaching the independence of the Church from the state and trumpeting the authority of the 5 Great Patriarchates and the Bishop of Rome as well as the rightful place of iconography within the ekklesia. To my knowledge his most famed work (at least amongst Westerners) is 'On Holy Icons' but perhaps one of our new Orthodox members might correct me? INXC Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 [quote name='thedude' date='Dec 27 2005, 10:18 AM']It's only one of many problems at this parish. I remember that nothing was said in the bulletin about John Paul II after his death. None of the liturgical reforms have been implimented. The Nicene Creed is never said. The list goes on... [right][snapback]836829[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh my Lord, that is soooo messed up. I would LEAVE that parish as soon as I could, it's not a place that anyone should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSecond Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 What's happening with this topic is indigestible. You folks are supposed to be CHRISTIANS. Sounds to me like a few of us forgot to read the Holy Bible thru. We aspire to be Christ-like 100% of the time, not only when things are going good, but also when we face situations that aren't in our favor or to our liking. By the way, the Church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for Saints (or public activists). Everyone's out of control with what's hanging on the walls of our Churches. It's time to be a little more concerned with what's hanging on the walls of our hearts (that is all that matters). 2nd Cor. 2:10 "I have forgiven if there was anything to forgive. I have forgotten in the sight of Christ for your sake. In order that satan might not outwit us for we are not unaware of his schemes." Let us not find worry about man made things. Our salvation is in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 forget one thing. these people have not asked for fogivness. your quote is for people who are asking for forgivness for their actions. these pictures that are bieng hung is shameful. Icons are hung up in churches for veneration. we should not and will not venerate Immonral Non-Catholics. But.... Charity is also very important and must be used at all times God Bless, Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 (edited) Indeed, EENS the moral quality of the non-Catholics matters not at all. Its their status as non-Catholics that is really the bone of contention. The Second I understand your indignantion but please understand that for us the exterior is the epitome of the interior. Was it enough for Solomon to slap together a Temple to house the Shekhinah? We Catholics believe that like Solomon the presence of God dwells in the sanctuary. Only unlike Solomon we dont believe it is a spiritual presence, a cloud, but the body and blood soul and divinity of Our Blessed Lord. Hence, how we decorate the temple of the Lord matters a lot to us. We're not arguing out of lack of devotion. Solomon did not get the best craftsmen of the Near East to build the best temple possible because he was cool of heart, at least not at that time in his life. When he built the Temple he built the finest altar he could and a golden chariot of cherubs therein (1 Chr 28:18-19). Indeed, according to Ezekiel's idealised vision of the temple there should be icons of angels all over the walls (Ezk 41:17-18) and what for, why these images of heavenly things? Because for the Jews the temple was a microcosm of the macrocosm and for Catholics likewise the Mass is Heaven on Earth, the place where the saints dwell, the place where they lead us to. Iconography enhances and draws out in the psychosomatic man a tangible taste of the invisible reality. When we celebrate the Sacred Mysteries we do it with the whole communion of saints: on earth, in purgatory and in Heaven all of whom are united to Christ as one mystical body in the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:18-20). Indeed, this is made explicit in the Eucharistic Prayers. Because of what we believe about the Mass we decorate our churches as we do and consequently it is far from apt to use non-Catholic icons. Since you're obviously coming from a different place you wont feel this way about Iconography but we on the other hand certainly do and if you take a little time to put yourself in our shoes I'm sure you'll understand why we have reacted so aggressively to this. As I did before I will suggest you buy Joseph Ratzinger's book 'The Spirit of the Liturgy' for the inside track on how we approach the mystery of the Mass. Pax Vobis Edited January 5, 2006 by Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Myles, you rock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty_boy Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Write to the Bishop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sraf Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 Reserve that for a really extreme situation. But if you judge the situation to be extreme, go for it. [quote]Really, are the icons in the Church that important? I always liked Lucy Maud Montgomery's line that the best Church is one among the pine trees in a forest at dawn, in perfect communion with nature. [/quote] To clarify: I shouldn't have typed 'C-H-U-R-C-H' with a capital 'C,' I should have typed a lowercase 'c.' As in, the little building where Mass is held. But seriously, given a 'real edifice' or a living, photosynthesizing tree? I'll take the tree, thanks. [quote]but if you want to improve your parish, then I would say that your first priority is to get the crucifix and Marian statue in a noticeable place, then focus on the non-Catholic saints. Then you can have a respectable set of icons and donate money to the monument to Dr. King in Washington D.C. [/quote] People also seemed to misunderstand this. I meant, "You have two goals with this church right here. 1. Affix the proper icons in the proper place (the crucifix and Mary) and 2. Work on getting rid of the pictures of MLK and Ghandi and whoever else, and/or getting them placed, say, I don't know, in the Parish hall, which would be a bit more apropos. I would suggest doing number 1 first, and then working on number 2." And I heard that a monumen to Dr. King is being put up on the Mall in Washington D.C. Three cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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