Where does Presumption end and Despair begin?

[Ziggamafu]

How does an individual judge his or her level of knowledge and understanding - and most importantly the freedom of the will and unhindered fullness of consent - when judging the weight of a grave sin? Even the gravest sin can be venial if one does not have a fully understood knowledge of its violation of natural law. Even the worst of grave matters, if committed, may be a venial sin if one does not have an unhampered consent toward the crime.

It would seem to me then that the discernment of an objective action is the easy part. Discernment of the subjective conditions is more difficult. It's not just "do I know that there is a list of things not to do and what I'm now doing is on it". It is, "do I understand why this is wrong; do I perceive the consequences of my actions and understand that they are so bad that I cannot justify my decision; [b]do I honestly [i]know[/i] this to be a gravely evil decision?[/b]

Similarly, it is not just "have I done the deed anyway". It is "have I deliberated about this? Have I done this deed in a free and unhampered state of being? Did I do this to achieve some kind of good? Did I feel helpless not to do it? [b]Did I honestly feel free enough to give [i]full and complete consent [/i]toward this action, and its consequences? [/b]

[i]Or did I want it;[/i] was I in a sane and calm state of mind, full of the grace and freedom necessary to make [b]a cold and calculated choice for evil to be brought into the world by my hands; [/b]have I chosen Hell on Earth - did I [i]will it [/i]to be - evil that I knew and consequences that I yearned for - the purposeful and intentional offense of a God I've decided to abandon and a Church whose salvation I've decided to sever myself from? [u]This [/u]is true mortal sin.

Every other sin, though it might be grave, twisted, deprived, and worthy of a torturous experience in Purgatory, is venial.

This is the only way I've been able to strike a balance between despair and presumption. Anyone disagree?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

St. Alphonsus de Liguori taught that if it's mortal sin, you'll know it beyond reasonable doubt.

[philothea]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Dec 26 2005, 08:34 AM']This is the only way I've been able to strike a balance between despair and presumption. Anyone disagree?
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Sounds exactly right to me.

I assume that this analysis goes along with the desire to avoid all venial sins too?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Dec 26 2005, 08:34 AM']How does an individual judge his or her level of knowledge and understanding - and most importantly the freedom of the will and unhindered fullness of consent - when judging the weight of a grave sin? Even the gravest sin can be venial if one does not have a fully understood knowledge of its violation of natural law. Even the worst of grave matters, if committed, may be a venial sin if one does not have an unhampered consent toward the crime.

It would seem to me then that the discernment of an objective action is the easy part. Discernment of the subjective conditions is more difficult. It's not just "do I know that there is a list of things not to do and what I'm now doing is on it". It is, "do I understand why this is wrong; do I perceive the consequences of my actions and understand that they are so bad that I cannot justify my decision; [b]do I honestly [i]know[/i] this to be a gravely evil decision?[/b]

Similarly, it is not just "have I done the deed anyway". It is "have I deliberated about this? Have I done this deed in a free and unhampered state of being? Did I do this to achieve some kind of good? Did I feel helpless not to do it? [b]Did I honestly feel free enough to give [i]full and complete consent [/i]toward this action, and its consequences? [/b]

[i]Or did I want it;[/i] was I in a sane and calm state of mind, full of the grace and freedom necessary to make [b]a cold and calculated choice for evil to be brought into the world by my hands; [/b]have I chosen Hell on Earth - did I [i]will it [/i]to be - evil that I knew and consequences that I yearned for - the purposeful and intentional offense of a God I've decided to abandon and a Church whose salvation I've decided to sever myself from? [u]This [/u]is true mortal sin.

Every other sin, though it might be grave, twisted, deprived, and worthy of a torturous experience in Purgatory, is venial.

This is the only way I've been able to strike a balance between despair and presumption. Anyone disagree?
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While I can't presume to know the state of anyone else's soul, and while it's not prefectly clear exactly what kind of situations you are talking about in this post, this seems from my reading to be a dangerously presumptious and lenient mindset for to take for one's spiritual life, and one not in accord with Catholic orthodoxy.

If one commits an act he knows is gravely sinful, but does it freely and willingly (not unconsciously or accidentally, or forced from without), he has committed mortal sin.

He does not have to make a "make a cold and calculated choice for evil to be brought into the world" or deliberately "choose hell on earth" or consciously intend to seperate himself from God and salvation to commit a mortal sin!

Almost no one sins with such intentions, yet mortal sins are commited frequently.

For instance, most sexual sins are not committed with the deliberate intent of damning oneself, or committed out of cold hatred of God, yet if done freely and deliberately, they are mortal.

Sins involving grave matter are not mortally sinful only if the person honestly and sincerely believes (out of invincible ignorance) that the action is not seriously wrong, or if the person was not fully conscious of his actions, or was forced by someone else against his will.

A prolonged reflection on the evil of one's actions is not necessary to make them mortally sinful.

It is all too easy to excuse one's own sinful actions.

Sin is the choosing of a lower good over a higher good. In most mortal sins, the higher good is simply conveniently ignored.
Sins committed for the sake of evil or itself, or with the deliberate purpose of offending God are quite rare, and while they are the most serious, this is not necessary for a sin to be mortal.

Despair is believing one's sins cannot be forgiven by God, or that one is destined for damnation and cannot be saved.
That is a different matter from realizing that one is guilty of mortal sin.

I'd suggest consulting a good, orthodox priest if you have further questions about this.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I do not think that it has to be THAT hard to commit a mortal sin. No one would if the conditions were that it was definitely grave matter, that they did it with absolute depth of understanding and full desire to burn in hell as a result.

However, it does require a simple knowledge that the act is gravely evil and that the act was freely committed (that is, that it was consciously decided upon and acted out without coercion and that the actor truly owns the act...it is his own).

However, one must desire to do what one knows to be objectively grave matter. He must do so with full use of his will (not so hard as it seems...a will which struggles internally and still acts is still freely acting). He must also know that the matter is grave and have no mental defect which would impede this ability.

The problem comes when one person says "it's so easy to commit a mortal sin" and another says "no, it's not!"

The fact is that for some who are beginning the spiritual journey or sometimes others who've fallen from the heights, it is easy...they say to themselves, "well, it would be a sin, I know that...and a big sin...but I want to do it because of such-and-such." Almost no one does it because they just want to offend God...that's not what we strive for. A person who is beginning on the spiritual journey is not so good at recognizing when he is approaching moral dilemmas with a scale, trying to balance out good and evil. This approach is called teleology and it's a faulty approach.

A person more advanced in the spiritual journey, however, says, "it would be a sin...and there is nothing that would excuse that." He sees the objective value of the sin and knows that there is no excuse. He sees that whatever pleasures he would get, they are not worth the eternal treasures he would lose, nor the offense he would commit against God.

It has to do with focus...the more our focus shifts toward God, the harder it is going to be for us to focus on temporal things. We will see a moral dilemma and more immediately and more resolutely focus our attention on God's will (albeit we all miss the mark everyday).

I think this attempt at discerning the difference comes from scrupulosity. Very often, the scrupulant can tell the confessor what the Catechism says about sins without any real trouble. The problem arises when he says, "but what if? What if my understanding is wrong? What if I didn't know? What if this? What if that?"

The fact is that the scrupulant torments himself so much with these questions, which kindle the excessive fear of hell, that he can no longer decide anything decisively. It's all possibilities...all uncertainties...what-if's are in command.

God did not intend our moral decisions to be like that. The Church outlines the distinctions entirely for the purpose of our knowing whether we have sinned. She does not desire for us to stand before God at the Gate of Heaven trying to split the hairs of every one of our acts. That's not the Church's will.

If you aren't certain from first glance in examination that you committed a mortal sin, then don't worry. That's one of the rules St. Alphonsus de Liguori set out.

In the words of one of the priest-professors at Franciscan, "you can't commit a mortal sin without knowing it. If you don't know if you committed a mortal sin, then there is no mortal sin."

The more you dig into yourself and beat yourself down with questions, trying to convict yourself of what is not there, the more blinded you become to the venial sins you commit, the more blinded you become to God's grace and mercy, and the more blinded you become to the whole purpose of the Church's teaching. The Church's teachings are not there to convict us...we are their to convict ourselves. We should not convict ourselves unless we know beyond [b]reasonable[/b] doubt that we have committed a sin. The teachings serve to inform our consciences to be proper judges, not to be the judges themselves.

Stop beating yourself up. Satan invented magic...he knows how to use smoke and mirrors and he knows that the more he wears you down, the more willing you will be to despair.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='philothea' date='Dec 26 2005, 11:19 AM']Sounds exactly right to me. 

I assume that this analysis goes along with the desire to avoid all venial sins too?
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Of course. Plus, the idea goes along with the belief that Purgatory is a truly terrible experience. And venial sins should still be confessed.

If that's not the way it works then people would have to go to confession DAILY. Grave matters ("white" lies, dishonor toward parents, cursing or saying a sacred name lightly, etc.) are committed by even the best of Christians every day. Either we have to be terrified that we'll die before we can get our clutches on an unsuspecting priest or we'll be pounding on a priest's door moring and night. Or I'm right.

More and more I firmly believe that the only sin that won't be forgiven in this world or the next is the conscious rejection of God; the choice for Hell. This fits not only into what Jesus said, but with common sense. If you have full knowledge and understanding and a completely unhampered consent of a free will and yet commit a grave matter anyway, you're not just committing a sin - you are rejecting God, point blank. You are choosing Hell. And I believe that the only reason people go to Hell is because they choose it.

And think of this: if I'm wrong, then Mother Church would be an awful Mother to only require me to go to Confession once a year. Sure she encourages me to go more frequently. But she only requires me to go once a year. For having the wisdom of God, that sure sounds like a stretch if mortal sins are committed daily.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Dec 27 2005, 05:49 AM']Of course. Plus, the idea goes along with the belief that Purgatory is a truly terrible experience. And venial sins should still be confessed.

If that's not the way it works then people would have to go to confession DAILY. Grave matters ("white" lies, dishonor toward parents, cursing or saying a sacred name lightly, etc.) are committed by even the best of Christians every day. Either we have to be terrified that we'll die before we can get our clutches on an unsuspecting priest or we'll be pounding on a priest's door moring and night. Or I'm right.

More and more I firmly believe that the only sin that won't be forgiven in this world or the next is the conscious rejection of God; the choice for Hell. This fits not only into what Jesus said, but with common sense. If you have full knowledge and understanding and a completely unhampered consent of a free will and yet commit a grave matter anyway, you're not just committing a sin - you are rejecting God, point blank. You are choosing Hell. And I believe that the only reason people go to Hell is because they choose it.

And think of this: if I'm wrong, then Mother Church would be an awful Mother to only require me to go to Confession once a year. Sure she encourages me to go more frequently. But she only requires me to go once a year. For having the wisdom of God, that sure sounds like a stretch if mortal sins are committed daily.
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I'm sorry, but your posting shows a lack of understanding about the meaning of mortal and venial sin, and what the Church teaches about mortal and venial sin.

"Mortal" does not mean "unforgivable." Mortal sin cuts us off from God's grace. It can still be forgiven in the sacrament of confession, (or by extraordinary means if God so grants in His Mercy.)

And not all sin is "grave matter." For instance, "white lies," mild disrespect to parents, or careless use of the Lord's name would in most cases be venial sin.
Lying about a serious matter or under oath, serious dishonoring of one's parents, and actually calling on God's name to curse another or to blaspheme would be mortal.

This is in the same way that stealing a dime would be venial sin, but stealing, say, $100.00 would be mortal sin.

Yearly confession is a [b]minimal[/b] requirement (what is necessary for one to call himself Catholic). One is supposed to go to confession as soon as possible after commiting mortal sin, and may mean frequent confession for many (I need to go pretty often myself). But how this implies [b]daily[/b] confession for everybody is beyond me. If one commits mortal sin on a daily basis, it is unlikely he is making much of an attempt to live a Christian life.
Some saintly people may never commit mortal sin.

You seem to have the impression that either every sin is mortal, or that one can only commit mortal sin by deliberately willing one's own damnation and consciously and coldly rejecting God.
Both these views are false and heretical.

I suggest you talk to one of the Church Scholars on this site, or an orthodox priest, and maybe they can recommend some good Catholic reading on this subject.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Dec 27 2005, 05:49 AM'] You are choosing Hell. And I believe that the only reason people go to Hell is because they choose it.
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For the most part you are correct. A person may "choose" hell by the general intent or direction of his life and sins; they do not have to have the intent of daming themselves in mind. It is enough to commit a mortal sin with the knowledge that it is wrong. One may murder another not intending to beaver dam himself, yet if he does not confess and do penance he will most likely suffer an ill fate.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 27 2005, 08:56 PM']...an ill fate.
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Just so everyone knows, Paphnutius ALWAYS speaks like this...it's not just type.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Dec 27 2005, 08:11 PM'] Just so everyone knows, Paphnutius ALWAYS speaks like this...it's not just type.
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Quid? not just a type?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 27 2005, 09:13 PM']  Quid? not just a type? 
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I mean that you speak this way...it's not just your writing. :

Novice, we need to talk sometime. I hear a friend of mine is headed to seminary at CSC. I'll have to visit.

[philothea]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Dec 27 2005, 08:11 PM'] Just so everyone knows, Paphnutius ALWAYS speaks like this...it's not just type.
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That's so cool.

[Ash Wednesday]

I tend to think that mortal sin happens as a result of a certain predisposition prior to it being committed. I view venial sins as something that bring us towards that predisposition. Oftentimes I think when people commit mortal sin, they know it is wrong, and at the same time they simply don't seem to care about the possibility of damnation. Habitual venial sin leads to a "whatever" attitude and hardness of heart. It's like they "don't give a beaver dam."

I think many people that fall out of God's grace really "know better" along the way and do very little, even though they see the warning signs. I guess I interpret it as being a process, like conversion, only in the opposite direction.

In the end, the best way to find that balance between despair and presumption is to form a correct conscience.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Dec 27 2005, 10:46 PM']I tend to think that mortal sin happens as a result of a certain predisposition prior to it being committed. I view venial sins as something that bring us towards that predisposition. Oftentimes I think when people commit mortal sin, they know it is wrong, and at the same time they simply don't seem to care about the possibility of damnation. Habitual venial sin leads to a "whatever" attitude and hardness of heart. It's like they "don't give a beaver dam."

I think many people that fall out of God's grace really "know better" along the way and do very little, even though they see the warning signs.  I guess I interpret it as being a process, like conversion, only in the opposite direction.

In the end, the best way to find that balance between despair and presumption is to form a correct conscience.
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At the same time, we have to avoid falling into the fundamental option theory (there's a fundamental option involved, but not to the extent that the theory proclaims).

[Ash Wednesday]

You'll have to elaborate on fundamental option, because I'm not quite sure what that means and whether or not my observations fall into that category. Is that the heresy where it is claimed that people can form a conscience not necessarily in conformity with the Church?

Edited December 28, 2005 by Ash Wednesday