Holding hands during the Our Father

[mariahLVzJP2]

so whats wrong with holding hands again??

after reading these comments i still dont see why its "wrong"

[philothea]

[quote name='mariahLVzJP2' date='Dec 26 2005, 07:59 PM']so whats wrong with holding hands again??

after reading these comments i still dont see why its "wrong"
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(1) It's an innovation. People shouldn't make up stuff to do at mass all on their own. That's up to the Magisterium to determine.

(2) The way it's undertaken often forces people who don't want to hold hands to do so.

It's also debatable whether it's appropriate to hold hands during the mass at that particular time at all, but IMO the above two reasons are plenty sufficient.

[journeyman]

[quote name='cappie' date='Dec 25 2005, 03:53 PM']Holding Hands at the Our Father?
ROME, NOV. 18, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum.

Q: Many say we should not be holding hands in the congregation while reciting the Lord's Prayer because it is not a community prayer but a prayer to "Our Father." Local priests say that since the Vatican has not specifically addressed it, then we are free to do as we please: either hold hands or not. What is the true Roman Catholic way in which to recite the Lord's Prayer during Mass? -- T.P., Milford, Maine

A: <snip>

While there are no directions as to the posture of the faithful, the rubrics clearly direct the priest and any concelebrants to pray the Our Father with hands extended -- so they at least should not hold hands.

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That's interesting - the retired priest who has presided the most at Mass in our parish of late comes out into the parish community for the Our Father

(not to change the subject (ad orientum, anyone?), but that is the one point in the Mass when his back is to the parish)

[quote name='cappie' date='Dec 25 2005, 03:53 PM']A different case is the practice in which some people adopt the "orantes" posture during the Our Father, praying like the priest, with hands extended.

In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops' request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so.

Despite appearances, this gesture is not, strictly speaking, a case of the laity trying to usurp priestly functions.

The Our Father is the prayer of the entire assembly and not a priestly or presidential prayer. In fact, it is perhaps the only case when the rubrics direct the priest to pray with arms extended in a prayer that he does not say alone or only with other priests. Therefore, in the case of the Our Father, the orantes posture expresses the prayer directed to God by his children.

The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes, however, and was dropped from the agenda.

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The more charismatic members of the parish do that at other points of the Mass. . . and in a far more charismatic parish than ours, at points where it truly does appear as if they are, if not usurping, at least duplicating, the priestly actions.

[Fidei Defensor]

I personally find it annoying when people hold their hands out, and/or hold hands during the Our Father. The Priest holds his hands out when he offers prayers to God, and in the Mass, this obviously holds both symbolic and physical meaning. IMHO, The rest of the congregation should fold their hands in humility or something to that effect when they pray.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Dec 26 2005, 02:34 PM']
Anyway, enough of my rant, I personally am against the hand-holding at the Our Father because the prayer and those that follow really are preparations for taking Communion.  It is a time to recollect, not to go scurrying all over the place.  That is why I also feel the sign of the peace needs to be curbed back a bit. It especially is problematic when the priest joins hands with the altar servers, replacing the orans posture, and showing a false theology (The priest is the one offering the sacrifice, the people are offering the sacrifice by the hands of the priest), not to mention just being terribly annoying, cheesy, and folksy.  This isn't a family dinner, it is the most solemn rite of our church, where heaven and earth meet! Jesus first performed this rite, realizing that his death was hours away!
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I agree. I don't mean to sound like a Grinch or a Scrooge, but I find the hand holding to be cheezy and annoying as well. I like being in Europe, because the people here (that actually go to church) don't do it.

To be honest, I would rather see the sign of peace at another place in the mass -- it seems like it turns into a big social hour (especially when I'd go to mass at a college campus...the big hugging and extended laughing and jokes just seemed inappropriate). Here you are, enjoying this very holy moment, kneeling and focusing on the consecration and all that, and suddenly you have to stand up and have someone reach out and make you look rude if you don't take their hand. And then you have to shake hands with people, and then it goes back to the holy moment of kneeling and taking communion. It just seems disjointed and out of place. Some kind of "touchy feely community" gesture butting it's head into the middle of the most sacred moment in the mass.

I know that V2 brought it back from the early church, but in the early church they did it at the beginning of mass or before the Eucharistic prayer. I'd personally rather it be at the beginning of mass.

[cappie]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Dec 28 2005, 10:56 AM']
I know that V2 brought it back from the early church, but in the early church they did it at the beginning of mass or before the Eucharistic prayer. I'd personally rather it be at the beginning of mass.
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FYI

In the "Old Mass" the Pax was exchanged between the Celebrant and the Deacon after the Agnus Dei before the Communion of the Priest

[Ash Wednesday]

So basically just the priest and the deacon exchanged a sign of peace?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Cathurian' date='Dec 24 2005, 11:11 PM']Is it a mortal sin to hold hands during the Our Father? I know you're not supposed to do it.
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Only if bad taste is a mortal sin.

[cappie]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Dec 28 2005, 12:21 PM']So basically just the priest and the deacon exchanged a sign of peace?
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yes, although if a Bishop was presiding (not celebrating) the celebrant would approach him to offer the pax as well.

[son_of_angels]

Yes, but in the Sarum liturgy the "Pax" given among the laity was an actual item, usually a representation of the crucifix, or some other icon, which was venerated throughout the congregation. This is also the case with other medieval churches. I like that one!

[Myles Domini]

In the Ambrosian Liturgy and in the Zairiean version of the Roman rite (authorised by the Holy See) the sign of peace is exchanged prior to the liturgy of the Eucharist. The practice harks back to antiquity as is evidenced from many patristic documents e.g. The first apology of St Justin Martyr:

[quote]But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. [b]Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss.[/b] There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

--St Justin Martyr First Apology LXV[/quote]

INXC
Myles

Edited December 28, 2005 by Myles

[jasJis]

Strain at the gnat, swallow the camel.

There are negative ways to look at holding hands, and positive aspects. We are worshipping as a COMMUNITY!. The Eucharist brings us all together as a Family with the SAME FATHER. I used to look at holding hands as a sign of community assent, a way to share and receive strength of faith with those around me. We are a community and those with stronger faith are praying for me as I prayed for those with weaker faith then me.

Now I find myself constantly thinking about what's wrong with holding hands. My parish has been doing it 100% for many years, and a number of pastors. It's not going to change anytime soon and it's impossible for me to attend Mass and get anything out of it because all I see are the 'errors'. Now all I think about is we are all misguided or mistaken or wrong, etc. Now I see people asking if it's a mortal sin to hold hands during the "Our" Father. So sad.