Communism and Liberalism

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 26 2005, 11:46 PM']Communism and Liberalism are one in the same!  In both Christ is their enemy, and Goverment is god.   Communist unjustly murdered Jews, Liberalist murder Babies.  
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Let's see what happens if you google mccarthyism.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 27 2005, 05:12 PM']Typically lib respose... Conservatives free the people of Iraq and we are evil ha!  Conservaties see to it justice is served against Child rapist and murders and we are evil.  Were as Libs give aid and want to be friends with terrorist.  Libs want to murder innocent babes, yet protect evil men that murder innocent people.[right][snapback]837123[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Typical conservatives, earlier witch-hunted communists in their own country and then got rid of a dictator-run government whose methods included witch-hunting potential dissenters.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Akalyte' date='Dec 24 2005, 12:34 PM'][url="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm"]http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm[/url]

"complete separation of church and state"

Hmm sounds just like John Kerry and the Democratic party.
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What if the relgion in question was Islam?

[ruso]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Dec 28 2005, 02:12 AM']Typically lib respose... Conservatives free the people of Iraq and we are evil ha!  Conservaties see to it justice is served against Child rapist and murders and we are evil.  Were as Libs give aid and want to be friends with terrorist.  Libs want to murder innocent babes, yet protect evil men that murder innocent people.

Anti-Christ Libs murder little innocent babies by the millions opon millions around the world and when Conservatives try to stop them we are evil.  What a joke.  Nina If you think that Liberalism and Communism are "quite different" please explain to us how?

I would add that Liberalism today in its full surport of the Abortion Holocaust is not to far from the Jewish Holocaust by the Nazi's.  Lib's go a step futher, at least Nazi's thought the Jew as a Human, however "sub-human"  Libs today do not even "grant" the title of Human to the unborn... "its" just a blob of cells to them.

Also Conservative Republicans fought a civil war in this country to free black slaves, Democrats rebelled hated The United States so much they made their own country, and went to war to keep the inslavement our black brothers in Christ.
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Anyone knows,even those that we were not born in the USA, that the slavery was not the cause of the war, at the most the excuse.
In Iraq thousands of innocent civilians have died, But Sadam is prisoner,
the aim justifies means?.
Because Bush father did not do it during the first Gulf War?, he animate to Them to rebel itself against Sadam, when they did it, Bush betray them and he leave them into the hands of Sadam.
If it had done it then all the Muslims had been thankful it, but now it is an invasion, lies to justify it, and the Muslims worldwide are indignants.
All think that the invasion has been by the fuel, and I also.
With the capital punishment, also did not come Jesus to bring the new law?. We return to the eye by eye?, also we can return to stone women you adulterate, as it puts in the old testament.
The Pope has put itself against it always, also Jonh P. II was in against..
In the subject of the abortion I agree, but taken care of with as it is spoken. The life is not white or black.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Akalyte' date='Dec 24 2005, 12:34 PM'][url="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm"]http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm[/url]

"complete separation of church and state"

Hmm sounds just like John Kerry and the Democratic party.
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What if the relgion in question was Islam? Would you support Islam?

13. Complete separation of Church and State. The clergy of every denomination shall be paid only by the voluntary contributions of their congregations.

Religion cannot be completely separated. Even Kerry's religious beliefs affect his political views.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Socrates]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Dec 28 2005, 07:04 PM']Let's see what happens if you google mccarthyism.
Typical conservatives, earlier witch-hunted communists in their own country and then got rid of a dictator-run government whose methods included witch-hunting potential dissenters.
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You are displaying your ignorance here. Most estimates say Communism was responsible for 70 million- 100 million murders world-wide through executions, "purges" forced famines, etc. It practiced widespread torture and death by concentration camps.
That is not "right-wing propaganda," but historical fact. Only the most fanatical communists and "fellow-travelers" will now claim otherwise.

To say that is equivilent to "McCarthyism" (that favorite bogeyman of the Left) is downright ludicrous. Communism was a real global threat in the post-WWII era, and there were actual Communist spies in the government. The worst that ever happened to anybody in those so-called "witch-hunts" were that careers were ended. Nobody was killed, or tortured, or sent to the Gulag.

The Left teaches a false version of history to divert from and excuse its own pathetic and shameful Cold War record of siding with Communism against America.

Learn the truth, rather than throw around tired Lefty slogans about "witch-hunts" and such.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Dec 28 2005, 07:52 PM']What if the relgion in question was Islam?  Would you support Islam?
[/quote]

We're not Muslim! We're Christian!

[quote]Even Kerry's religious beliefs affect his political views.
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Then his religious beliefs must have nothing to do with Catholicism!

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 28 2005, 07:46 PM']To say that is equivilent to "McCarthyism" (that favorite bogeyman of the Left) is downright ludicrous.  Communism was a real global threat in the post-WWII era, and there were actual Communist spies in the government.  The worst that ever happened to anybody in those so-called "witch-hunts" were that careers were ended.  Nobody was killed, or tortured, or sent to the Gulag.

The Left teaches a false version of history to divert from and excuse its own pathetic and shameful Cold War record of siding with Communism against America.

Learn the truth, rather than throw around tired Lefty slogans about "witch-hunts" and such.
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I don't mean to compare numbers of people physically killed. I mean that McCarthyism and the red scare left a in their time a legacy of fear, fear that kept people from being open about what they believe, fear of honestly taking a stand. If in anyway what is taught about McCarthyism is exaggerated, the fact remains, fear not simpy of communism in the "red scare" but of the power of this political movement known as McCarthyism to impact their lives kept people from their first ammendment rights.

"His subsequent exile from politics coincided with a conversion of his name into a modern English noun "McCarthyism," or adjective, "McCarthy tactics," when describing similar witchhunts in recent American history. [The American Heritage Dictionary gives the definition of McCarthyism as: 1. The political practice of publicizing accusations of disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence, and 2. The use of methods of investigation and accusation regarded as unfair, in order to suppress opposition.] " [url="http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/Dl/McCarthy/Mccarthydocuments.html"]eisenhower.archives.gov[/url]

"Though eventually his accusations were proven to be untrue, and he was censured by the Senate for unbecoming conduct, his zealous campaigning ushered in one of the most repressive times in 20th-century American politics….Known as McCarthyism, the paranoid hunt for infiltrators was notoriously difficult on writers and entertainers, many of whom were labeled communist sympathizers and were unable to continue working... The trials, which were well publicized, could often destroy a career with a single unsubstantiated accusation… In all, three hundred and twenty artists were blacklisted, and for many of them this meant the end of exceptional and promising careers…During this time there were few in the press willing to stand up against McCarthy and the anti-Communist machine... Though relatively short, these proceedings remain one of the most shameful moments in modern U.S. history." [url="http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mccarthyism.html"]PBS, American Masters[/url]

"McCarthyism's main impact may well have been in what did not happen rather than in what did the social reforms that were never adopted, the diplomatic initiatives that were not pursued, the workers who were not organized into unions, the books that were not written, and the movies that were never filmed. In the realm of social policy, for example, McCarthyism may have aborted much-needed reforms. Moderates feared being identified with anything that seemed too radical, and people to the left of them were either unheard or under attack. ... effective public criticism of America's role in the world was essentially nonexistent…The nation's cultural and intellectual life suffered as well… McCarthy-era anxieties clearly played a role... In the intellectual world, cold war liberals also avoided controversy.

Ironically, just as these social commentators were lauding the resilience of American democracy, the anti-Communist crusade was undermining it. The political repression of the McCarthy era fostered the growth of the national security state and facilitated its expansion into the rest of civil society. [b]On the pretext of protecting the nation from Communist infiltration, federal agents attacked individual rights and extended state power into movie studios, universities, labor unions, and many other ostensibly independent institutions.[/b] The near universal deference to the federal government's formulation of the Communist threat abetted the process and muted opposition to what was going on…Moreover, even after the anti-Communist furor receded, the antidemocratic practices associated with it continued." [b][url="http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schrecker-legacy.html"]http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s...ker-legacy.html[/url][/b]
[url="http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schrecker-age.html"]http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s...recker-age.html[/url]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

My point is not one of lost lives, but of lost liberty. I have just finished reading [i]A Hundred and One Days: A Baghdad Journal[/i] by Asne Seierstad, a report who was in Iraq before and throughout the recent war there. She recounts at different points how people were arrested for saying something questionable. One of the finest points of a dictatorship is how it controls through fear. The impact on lives may have been less with McCarthyism, but liberty was lost in that time. I have cited a government site, a public educational organization, and the university of Pennsylvania. Along with religion, freedom of speech, press, assembly, and petition are among the most important in American tradition.

If you say that what I have posted is so far exaggerated, will you deny that it had any impact on restricting first amendment freedom? We both disagree with communism, but if you think that what happened in McCarthyism is justified, then please tell me why you think that our nation would have willingly become communist? I expect some of the fear that our nation experienced after 9/11 may have born some short-lived resemblance to the kind of fear that existed during the so called Red Scare. They might have been able to influence our policy, and not always for the worst, but they would have been able to take over.

Balance does a political body good.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 28 2005, 07:47 PM']We're not Muslim!  We're Christian![right][snapback]838219[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Not every American is. To some, that is as much the truth as Catholicism is to you.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Dec 28 2005, 11:16 PM']I don't mean to compare numbers of people physically killed.  I mean that McCarthyism and the red scare left a in their time a legacy of fear, fear that kept people from being open about what they believe, fear of honestly taking a stand.  If in anyway what is taught about McCarthyism is exaggerated, the fact remains, fear not simpy of communism in the "red scare" but of the power of this political movement known as McCarthyism to impact their lives kept people from their first ammendment rights.

"His subsequent exile from politics coincided with a conversion of his name into a modern English noun "McCarthyism," or adjective, "McCarthy tactics," when describing similar witchhunts in recent American history.  [The American Heritage Dictionary gives the definition of McCarthyism as:  1.  The political practice of publicizing accusations of disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence, and  2.  The use of methods of investigation and accusation regarded as unfair, in order to suppress opposition.] "  [url="http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/Dl/McCarthy/Mccarthydocuments.html"]eisenhower.archives.gov[/url]

"Though eventually his accusations were proven to be untrue, and he was censured by the Senate for unbecoming conduct, his zealous campaigning ushered in one of the most repressive times in 20th-century American politics….Known as McCarthyism, the paranoid hunt for infiltrators was notoriously difficult on writers and entertainers, many of whom were labeled communist sympathizers and were unable to continue working... The trials, which were well publicized, could often destroy a career with a single unsubstantiated accusation… In all, three hundred and twenty artists were blacklisted, and for many of them this meant the end of exceptional and promising careers…During this time there were few in the press willing to stand up against McCarthy and the anti-Communist machine... Though relatively short, these proceedings remain one of the most shameful moments in modern U.S. history." [url="http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/mccarthyism.html"]PBS, American Masters[/url]

"McCarthyism's main impact may well have been in what did not happen rather than in what did the social reforms that were never adopted, the diplomatic initiatives that were not pursued, the workers who were not organized into unions, the books that were not written, and the movies that were never filmed. In the realm of social policy, for example, McCarthyism may have aborted much-needed reforms. Moderates feared being identified with anything that seemed too radical, and people to the left of them were either unheard or under attack. ... effective public criticism of America's role in the world was essentially nonexistent…The nation's cultural and intellectual life suffered as well… McCarthy-era anxieties clearly played a role... In the intellectual world, cold war liberals also avoided controversy.

Ironically, just as these social commentators were lauding the resilience of American democracy, the anti-Communist crusade was undermining it. The political repression of the McCarthy era fostered the growth of the national security state and facilitated its expansion into the rest of civil society. [b]On the pretext of protecting the nation from Communist infiltration, federal agents attacked individual rights and extended state power into movie studios, universities, labor unions, and many other ostensibly independent institutions.[/b] The near universal deference to the federal government's formulation of the Communist threat abetted the process and muted opposition to what was going on…Moreover, even after the anti-Communist furor receded, the antidemocratic practices associated with it continued."  [b][url="http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schrecker-legacy.html"]http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s...ker-legacy.html[/url][/b]
[url="http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schrecker-age.html"]http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s...recker-age.html[/url]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

My point is not one of lost lives, but of lost liberty.  I have just finished reading [i]A Hundred and One Days: A Baghdad Journal[/i] by Asne Seierstad, a report who was in Iraq before and throughout the recent war there.  She recounts at different points how people were arrested for saying something questionable.  One of the finest points of a dictatorship is how it controls through fear.  The impact on lives may have been less with McCarthyism, but liberty was lost in that time.  I have cited a government site, a public educational organization, and the university of Pennsylvania.  Along with religion, freedom of speech, press, assembly, and petition are among the most important in American tradition.

If you say that what I have posted is so far exaggerated, will you deny that it had any impact on restricting first amendment freedom?  We both disagree with communism, but if you think that what happened in McCarthyism is justified, then please tell me why you think that our nation would have willingly become communist?  I expect some of the fear that our nation experienced after 9/11 may have born some short-lived resemblance to the kind of fear that existed during the so called Red Scare.  They might have been able to influence our policy, and not always for the worst, but they would have been able to take over.

Balance does a political body good.
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Yeah, yeah, I've heard the whole Left-wing anti-McCarthy, "red-scare" spiel before. I also have a B.A. in History, and have studied recent American history and the history of the Communist Revolution.
And the Communist threat was real. Most lefty rants about the supposed horrors of "McCarthyism" and "witch-hunts" ignore the very real historical facts about the nature of Soviet Communism at the time, which was monstrously evil, and seriously sought to destroy its arch-rival America, and the entire American way of life, and sought nothing less than world-domination. (And beleive me, there would have been absolutely NO first-amendment rights, or many other basic human rights, under a Communist system!)

There were indeed Communist spies infiltrating the U.S. government at this times, many of whom were exposed under "McCarthyism."
While it is indeed argubale that McCarthy sometimes went to far, and at times made of fool of himself, it is undeniable that the threat was real.
Liberals tend to act as though American Communists were just people with eccentric but harmless political views, but the truth is that they were [b]traitors[/b] to their country, working for America's number-one enemy!

I suggest you read the classic [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895267896/qid=1135901501/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-2323353-4496057?s=books&v=glance&n=283155"][i]Witness[/i], by Whittaker Chambers,[/url] a former Communist spy, who turned on his fellow Communists in the early '50s, for a true story of what was going on at that time.

I also suggest you read [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/093188859X/ref=pd_rhf_p_2/002-2323353-4496057?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155"][i]The Rise & Fall Of the Communist Revolution[/i], by Warren H. Carroll[/url] for a history of Communism, and its true nature. I'm warning you, it's not a pretty picture!

Liberals consistantly attack and ridicule those who stood up to the evil of Communism, while generally ignoring the true nature of Communism and the Soviet Union. They do this in order to distract from their own shameful and cowardly record of siding with the Communists throughout the "Cold War."

Try a mental exercise. If the Nazis had won WWII, and sought to topple the U.S., and had infiltrated the U.S. government and media organs, would you consider "McCarthyism" against the Nazis in this country so evil and wrong?
The Soviets were just as evil as the Nazis, and much more dangerous, because their goals and organization were international, while Nazism was mostly confined to one country.

And it's ironic that liberals cry so much about suppression of "free speech" during the Cold War, while today, they are the ones in favor of enforcement of "political correctness" and "hate crime" laws.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Dec 28 2005, 11:25 PM']Not every American is.  To some, that is as much the truth as Catholicism is to you.
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There can only be one truth. Catholicism and Islam cannot both be true!

[KnightofChrist]

[color=blue]ruso -
Anyone knows,even those that we were not born in the USA, that the slavery was not the cause of the war, at the most the excuse.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist -
It MAY not have been THE CAUSE but it was one of THE GREAT CAUSES. One of the great reasons the Democrat South pulled out of the Union was because a Republican anti-slavery won the office of the President.[/color]

[color=blue]ruso -
In Iraq thousands of innocent civilians have died, But Sadam is prisoner,
the aim justifies means?[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist -
So Sadam should not be in Jail? He should still be filling THOUSANDS OF MASS GRAVES with innocent civilians? Who should be in jail? George W. Bush? The Troops? Who is evil Bush or Sadam? Bush frees a people and some innocent people accidently have been killed. Sadam murders his people and denined them freedom, and pays terrorist to murder Jews. Who is evil?[/color]

[color=blue]ruso -
Because Bush father did not do it during the first Gulf War?, he animate to Them to rebel itself against Sadam, when they did it, Bush betray them and he leave them into the hands of Sadam.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist -
The First Bush was forced to stop at the border because the allies would not invade with Us, and Libs didnt want an invasion... it would have just turned out like what have now.[/color]

[color=blue]ruso -
If it had done it then all the Muslims had been thankful it, but now it is an invasion, lies to justify it, and the Muslims worldwide are indignants.
All think that the invasion has been by the fuel, and I also.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist -
I doubt that very much! Terrorist or Extreme Muslims hate us because we do not worship God as they know Him. It would not have matter if we invaded then or now. What? Lies?

1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium
1,500 gallons of chemical weapons agents
Chemical warheads containing cyclosarin (a nerve agent five times more deadly than sarin gas)
Over 1,000 radioactive materials in powdered form meant for dispersal over populated areas

This is only a PARTIAL LIST of the horrific weapons verified to have been recovered in Iraq to date. Yet, Americans overwhelmingly believe U.S. and coalition forces found NO weapons of mass destruction. And if you really believe it was for oil stop driving your car.[/color]


[color=blue]ruso -
With the capital punishment, also did not come Jesus to bring the new law?. We return to the eye by eye?, also we can return to stone women you adulterate, as it puts in the old testament. [/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist -
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword." Matt. 10:34 We are not to "return to the eye for an eye" however we are not to break the law of God Matt. 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Te traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude “the death penalty in cases of extreme gravity,” as “a penalty proportioned to the gravity of the crime” (2266).[/color]

[color=blue]ruso -
The Pope has put itself against it always, also Jonh P. II was in against..[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist -
However, the Church as a whole is not completely opposed to the death penalty under all circumstances as a matter of doctrine; rather, John Paul II, as an individual, was opposed to it. The official church teaching however, is that capital punishment can be necessary at times when a society does not have the means to keep its citizens safe from criminals. Catholics are called to oppose the death penalty if the condemned can be successfully kept behind bars to protect society. Also if indeed an criminal does not pose a threat to the public does not mean the criminal poses a threat to "society". Are not the other criminals in prison and Prison Officers part of society? Does not a criminal in prison for murder pose a threat to others even in prison? Or are the other persons in prison not part of "society"?[/color]


[color=blue]ruso -
In the subject of the abortion I agree, but taken care of with as it is spoken. The life is not white or black.[/color]

[color=red]KnightofChrist -
I agree Abortion is Murder and a Holocaust[/color]

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 29 2005, 04:42 PM']There can only be one truth.  Catholicism and Islam cannot both be true!
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Oh, I get it. The best form of government is just dependant on who you are. Or if that is wrong, then we can just make them comply with what is right, even if that means a bunch of false "Christians." Who cares if we are taking away their free will in various ways as long as they aren't doing something the Church deems wrong. The less faithful can just convert now and repent later as much as their beliefs allow and the rest can just be punished for not conforming to the dictates of the church. After all, that is the most loving thing to do, right?

Do they not have the right to consideration? Does relationship between church and state only matter if it is a Christian church? I hope you do not agree with the so-called theocracies of some Muslim countries that use religion to control and manipulate the masses and persecute Christians the way they do. Of course you wouldn’t though, you would take away their freedom to follow their faith by force. So between your humanly enforced theocracy and their supposed theocracy and similar thinking everyone can just fight each other. Of course the Church will have it's way, so who cares.

Edited December 31, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Socrates]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:20 PM']Oh, I get it.  The best form of government is just dependant on who you are.  Or if that is wrong, then we can just make them comply with what is right, even if that means a bunch of false "Christians."  Who cares if we are taking away their free will in various ways as long as they aren't doing something the Church deems wrong.  The less faithful can just convert now and repent later as much as their beliefs allow and the rest can just be punished for not conforming to the dictates of the church.  After all, that is the most loving thing to do, right?

Do they not have the right to consideration?  Does relationship between church and state only matter if it is a Christian church?  I hope you do not agree with the so-called theocracies of some Muslim countries that use religion to control and manipulate the masses and persecute Christians the way they do.  Of course you wouldn’t though, you would take away their freedom to follow their faith by force.  So between your humanly enforced theocracy and their supposed theocracy and similar thinking everyone can just fight each other. Of course the Church will have it's way, so who cares.
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Next time, perhaps try posting something logical and coherent, rather than just a rant.

I make the logical statement that Christianity and Islam cannot both be true, and from that you say that I'm in favor of some kind kind of horrible oppressive dictatorship that will take away everybody's rights!

A government built on Christian principles, which are true, will be better than one built on the false principles of Mohammedism.

If you doubt this, look at the kind of oppression which exists Muslim countries, which does not exist in Christian countries.

Total relativism is a path to destruction.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:55 PM']I make the logical statement that Christianity and Islam cannot both be true, and from that you say that I'm in favor of some kind kind of horrible oppressive dictatorship that will take away everybody's rights!

A government built on Christian principles, which are true, will be better than one built on the false principles of Mohammedism.
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But where do you account for the differences in religions? Christians will have their sabbath recognized, but should Jews and Muslims have theirs ignored? I am in favor of general Christian principals but do you believe that Christians should be shown favortism by a government?

Edited January 1, 2006 by Light and Truth

[Socrates]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Dec 31 2005, 05:16 PM']But where do you account for the differences in religions?  Christians will have their sabbath recognized, but should Jews and Muslims have theirs ignored?  I am in favor of general Christian principals but do you believe that Christians should be shown favortism by a government?
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Everyone is free to observe the Sabbath day of their choice.

I do not beleive that was ever really an issue.