labor unions

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 20 2005, 09:57 AM']Leo XIII supported unions.
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yeah, but its still an open question because such support cannot be unconditional and must be understood in the context of his statements, as well as in the social, economic and historical context of the time.

I'm not saying I don't support unions, I'm just saying that the particulars are still very much on the table as it were. Jas has a good point for example.

[Carrie]

What's going on in NYC is infuriating.

First, the strike is illegal.

Second, if the TWU was concerned about straphangers, they would have waited til after the holidays to strike. NYC is losing $400 million a day!

Third, the MTA workers make between 47,000-52,000 a year starting [b]base[/b] salary, not including overtime or benefits. I don't know about the rest of you, but that's considerably more than I make and I still manage to live comfortably in this city.

Fourth, age for pension eligibility is 55, instead of 62 like most people.

Fifth, the workers don't pay for healthcare and are outraged that incoming employees will have to pay one percent of their health care. They also do not pay co-payments. Don't the rest of us pay co-payments? Yes!

Sixth, the TWU president is up for re-election this year. This strike is one way for him to play political re-election games.

Seventh, the TWU leaders are now being held in criminal contempt by the courts and can be arrested.

The MTA offered the TWU a very good contract on Monday night, which the TWU turned down. Their parent union is furious that they turned down the offer.

Basically, they have good base wages, better benefits than most people in this country, pensions at 55 and were offered an eleven percent raise over the next three years as well. The union is illegally trying to bring this city to its knees.

Police officers base salary = $25,000
Firefighters base salary = $25,000

Please tell me who has a worse working condition? The police officers who fight criminals everyday? The firefighters who risk their lives daily to save others? Or the MTA workers who deal with a few rats (this only applies to the subway workers, not the bus workers)?

Yet, look at the differences in base wages. Personally, I think the police officers and firefighters deserve higher wages. But are they striking? No.

end of rant.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='RC_' date='Dec 21 2005, 04:17 AM']Without unions, employeers controll the labor market, and will basically enslave thier employees.  The demands put on workers these days are less christian than the requests made by labor unions.
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no, employers do not own employees...
working men and women controll the job market - people like you and me
this isnt the early 1900's - we do not have to work at the local labor mill, lol

today in America we have a "competitive job market" - we have employment options - and it behooves an employer to have an attractive work environment if it wants to attract and keep skilled employees

[RC_]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Dec 21 2005, 11:42 AM']no, employers do not own employees...
working men and women controll the job market - people like you and me
this isnt the early 1900's - we do not have to work at the local labor mill, lol

today in America we have a "competitive job market" - we have  employment  options - and it behooves an employer to have an attractive work environment if it wants to attract and keep skilled employees
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There are lots of people without college educations that are not part of the so-called "competitive job market". Even skilled laborers do not have many viable options without the benifits of unions.

[Didacus]

OK OK OK

Time for a Canadien point of view:

I ABSOLUTELY DETEST MODERN DAY UNIONS!

(I would say hate, but that would be unchristian)

Union today have the unique purpose of business.. making more moeny. It is their only reason to persist in existance in this day and age... at least in Canada. Never worked for one and hope I never do.

back to you Bob....

[Pennypacker11]

Without commenting on the specifics and legitimacy of the NYC strike itself, the idea of unions must be defended by Catholics. It is found from Leo XII through John Paul II. Gaudium et Spes 68 says:

"In economic enterprises it is persons who are joined together, that is, free and independent human beings created lo the image of God. Therefore, with attention to the functions of each-owners or employers, management or labor-and without doing harm to the necessary unity of management, the active sharing of all in the administration and profits of these enterprises in ways to be properly determined is to be promoted.(7) Since more often, however, decisions concerning economic and social conditions, on which the future lot of the workers and of their children depends, are made not within the business itself but by institutions on a higher level, the workers themselves should have a share also in determining these conditions-in person or through freely elected delegates.

Among the basic rights of the human person is to be numbered the right of freely founding unions for working people. These should be able truly to represent them and to contribute to the organizing of economic life in the right way. Included is the right of freely taking part in the activity of these unions without risk of reprisal. Through this orderly participation joined to progressive economic and social formation, all will grow day by day in the awareness of their own function and responsibility, and thus they will be brought to feel that they are comrades in the whole task of economic development and in the attainment of the universal common good according to their capacities and aptitudes.

When, however, socio-economic disputes arise, efforts must be made to come to a peaceful settlement. Although recourse must always be had first to a sincere dialogue between the parties, a strike, nevertheless, can remain even in presentday circumstances a necessary, though ultimate, aid for the defense of the workers' own rights and the fulfillment of their just desires. As soon as possible, however, ways should be sought to resume negotiation and the discussion of reconciliation."

While one can lament and reject certain actions by certain unions, the basic right to unionize must be held.

[Socrates]

I'm reading a book that deals with this subject right now.

It's hard to summarize in a few pithy soundbites, but it has been shown that in fact labor unions actually create a significant drain on the economy, and thus lower the total amount of production of actual wealth, and thus actually lower wages in general.

The artificially high union wages, and the costs on employers created by unions, decrease the demand for workers, and thus force skilled workers out of work, forcing them to find other unskilled work or unemployment.

This weakens the overall economy, and brings overall wages down.

(I'll try to explain this better sometime later).

[Didacus]

Unions where necessary 40-70 years ago and before when genuine concerns over heatlth and work conditions where critical. People's lives where on the line every day, and needed to be defended as well as some basic rights.

In this modern day and age every such basic rights once fought for by the union are guaranteed by law (at least in Canada), and the lives are protected. Unions are thus no longer necessary in their original sense and context.

Being a worker in the industrial field, and having done several sectors at that (sawmills, pulp mills, copper mins and more oh my!) I can tell you first hand that the modern day purpose of the uions is to bring in more money - plain and simple. All it is these days is a business group and not even fragments of the one noble cause remains that was once carried.

And yes, this is a major drag on the economy, on workers, on a nation and more. It gets very extensive to explain how and why this is so, and I can forward some arguments (but I'll let Socrates spear head it for now if he will - I like Clint by the way, ever consider going on a talk show?).

[photosynthesis]

I am so glad the strike is over. Thank God!
now I can go see my friends in the city

[jasJis]

[quote name='RC_' date='Dec 22 2005, 03:32 AM']There are lots of people without college educations that are not part of the so-called "competitive job market".  Even skilled laborers do not have many viable options without the benifits of unions.
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[/quote]What part of the world are you from? Skilled laborers do have many viable optoins without the benefits of Unions. Face it, it's not likely an non-college educated person is going to be running a Savings & Loan, making $250,000 a year. I've spent 20+ years in construction and know lot's of successful workers making a nice living. I also see others with the same opportunity and not succeed at all because they don't properly deal with life priorities. With OSHA laws, the cost of insurance, Federal and State labor laws, and other public health rules, it's not likely a company is going to be viloating the laws and employ enough people to interest the Union. The early purpose of the Unions were about Safety and Skills, similar to Trade Guilds. The Government has been motivated and/or forced by Unions to establish and enforce lot's of Safety measures. The second role of Unions is to create skilled workers. That is where Unions today can provide benefits to non-college educated persons. After that, it's supply and demand, value to an employer when hiring workers which is competitive in today's labor market. I doubt you have the life experience of trying to hire workers for 20 years like I have. There are tons of losers out there looking for jobs and don't have a clue why they aren't successful when they always come in late, always try to do the least amount of work, frequently call in sick, and are always complaining about the employer. Yeah, that's the person I want to hire and be an integral part of my team.