Doctrine of mental reservation

[Sojourner]

[url="http://www.volunteertv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4256709"]From the Associated Press[/url]
[quote]PORTLAND, Ore. Attorneys for alleged victims of sex abuse are asking a federal judge to let them question a top-ranking Vatican official about a church doctrine that might permit him to lie under oath.

Archbishop William Levada (leh-VAY'-duh) has agreed to be questioned during a January ninth deposition about his tenure as archbishop of Portland from 1986 to 1995. The San Francisco prelate is the Vatican's guardian of doctrinal orthodoxy.

Attorneys for the victims want to ask Levada whether he would rely on the so-called doctrine of "mental reservation" when answering questions at the deposition in San Francisco. Although the Catholic church teaches it's a sin to lie, the doctrine allows for circumstances where avoiding the truth might serve a higher purpose.

A Vatican attorney says the archbishop's civil oath should be sufficient to ensure honest answers.[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm"]Here's the New Advent bit on the topic[/url]

I had no idea such a thing existed. Fascinating ... so we can lie as long as we can come up with a mental justification for it? I have a little trouble swallowing that.

[TheoGrad07]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 19 2005, 09:26 AM'][url="http://www.volunteertv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4256709"]From the Associated Press[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm"]Here's the New Advent bit on the topic[/url]

I had no idea such a thing existed. Fascinating ... so we can lie as long as we can come up with a mental justification for it? I have a little trouble swallowing that.
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No, we can't lie as long as we can come up with justification: we can never lie.

A lie is by deffinition [i]keeping the truth from someone ***who has a right to know the truth***.[/i] This last part is the crucial distinction.

It is never permissible to tell a lie: however, very often the person does not have a right to know the truth, for a variety of reasons. Not telling such a person the truth is not strictly speaking a lie, although it looks such. (This isn't end justifies the means or committing a lesser evil for a greater good, neither of which are morally permissible, since a lie is not told.)

Here's a quote from New Advent: "A sin is committed if mental reservations are used without just cause, or **in cases when the questioner has a right to the naked truth**." (emphaiss added)

"For that man tells a lie who makes use of words which are false with the intention of deceiving another" -- and I think it's necessary to add "who has a right to know the truth" because otherwise situations arise in which one seems to have to lie.

Finally, New Advent makes a distinction: "After this condemnation by the Holy See no Catholic theologian has defended the lawfulness of ***strict mental reservations***." (emphasis added)

Strict mental reservations, condemned by the Holy See, is lying: one makes justifications in one's own mind to deceive the person (and this person has the right to know the truth).

Wide mental reservation is not lying, since the person one is speaking to has no right to know the truth: a murderer has no right to know where the person he seeks to murder is. Thus wide mental reservation is compatible with Augustine's condemnation of lying, even to save a life, if lying is defined as not telling the truth to one who has the right to know the truth.

Edited December 19, 2005 by TheoGrad07

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 19 2005, 09:26 AM'][url="http://www.volunteertv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4256709"]From the Associated Press[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm"]Here's the New Advent bit on the topic[/url]

I had no idea such a thing existed. Fascinating ... so we can lie as long as we can come up with a mental justification for it? I have a little trouble swallowing that.
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Telling a lie is never justified. A mental reservation is a way of concealing the truth from those that do not have the right to know in a way that is acceptable. The way that a mental reservation works is that one tells the truth in a way that may be understood in different ways.

An example is if someone calls asking for your mother (blasted marketers) and you tell him that your mother is not at home although she is. That is a lie.

If you say that your mother is not availible, you are not telling a lie, you are telling the truth, but in such a way that the person may understand it as your mother not being at home.

Mental reservations include phrases that have varying accepted meanings.

[TheoGrad07]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 19 2005, 09:47 AM']Telling a lie is never justified. A mental reservation is a way of concealing the truth from those that do not have the right to know in a way that is acceptable. The way that a mental reservation works is that one tells the truth in a way that may be understood in different ways.

An example is if someone calls asking for your mother (blasted marketers) and you tell him that your mother is not at home although she is. That is a lie.

If you say that your mother is not availible, you are not telling a lie, you are telling the truth, but in such a way that the person may understand it as your mother not being at home.

Mental reservations include phrases that have varying accepted meanings.
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I agree with what you're saying about equivocations, but I think, as I noted earlier when I edited my post, the deffinition of lying is key.

[Theoketos]

Lying is always wrong, but some times people do not have a just right to the truth. So not giving them the truth is not a lie. In the latter case the external object of the moral act has a circumstance lacking in it.

[Sojourner]

I agree that the definition of lying is key here ... I suppose I've just never defined it that way, and I have trouble defining it that way now. It just seems so ... underhanded.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 19 2005, 10:04 AM']I agree that the definition of lying is key here ... I suppose I've just never defined it that way, and I have trouble defining it that way now. It just seems so ... underhanded.
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It is underhanded for someone who does not have a right to the knowledge to try to get at the knowledge. Mental reservations are allowed to protect the those who could be hurt by those who have no right to the knowledge.

To lie is to tell something that is contrary to what one believes to be true.
A mental reservation is saying something that is true, but in a way that conceals the truth from those that do not need to know it.

Cray, I know.

Edited December 19, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 19 2005, 12:08 PM']It is underhanded for someone who does not have a right to the knowledge to try to get at the knowledge. Mental reservations are allowed to protect the those who could be hurt by those who have no right to the knowledge.

To lie is to tell something that is contrary to what one believes to be true.
A mental reservation is saying something that is true, but in a way that conceals the truth from those that do not need to know it.

Cray, I know. 
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It just seems like it's a doctrine very, very open to abuse.


I know a lot of politicians who use mental reservations to justify lots of stuff.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 19 2005, 10:16 AM']It just seems like it's a doctrine very, very open to abuse.
I know a lot of politicians who use mental reservations to justify lots of stuff.
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Much is open to abuse and I am not defending any particular use of it here. What needs to be justified is whether or not the person that the truth is being concealed from has the right or not to know it. That gets into a lot of other things though...

[Earthsea Annie]

I'm sorry, but every time I see the title of this thread, the first thing that goes through my mind is, "The Doctrine of Mental Retardation."

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 19 2005, 09:47 AM']An example is if someone calls asking for your mother (blasted marketers) and you tell him that your mother is not at home although she is. That is a lie.

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Do telemarketers have a right to the truth?????

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Earthsea Annie' date='Dec 19 2005, 10:43 AM']I'm sorry, but every time I see the title of this thread, the first thing that goes through my mind is, "The Doctrine of Mental Retardation."
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That's a pretty interesting observation...

*mentally reserved* (for a blockhead)

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Dec 19 2005, 12:52 PM']Do telemarketers have a right to the truth?????
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They do ... and the truth is that I never purchase anything over the telephone. Which is what I tell them, in no uncertain terms, when I end up on the phone with one of them.


[quote name='Earthsea Annie' date='Dec 19 2005, 12:43 PM']I'm sorry, but every time I see the title of this thread, the first thing that goes through my mind is, "The Doctrine of Mental Retardation."
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[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 19 2005, 12:57 PM']That's a pretty interesting observation...

*mentally reserved* (for a blockhead)
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So when you say mentally reserved, does that mean you're reserving part of your brain for use later?

p.s. I'm stealing your signature for my title.

[Theoketos]

Nazis would not have the right to know that I am hidding my Jewish friend in my basement.

My wife has the right to know whether I ate all the cookies.

[Aloysius]

a lie is saying something that is untrue, or intentionally deceiving. when you are using mental reservation, or as I like to call it "evasive action", everything you are saying is 100% true. you are simply refusing to offer certain other things that are true that the person does not have the right to know.

in this case it is irrelevent, because if someone is under oath to tell the truth, [i]the whole truth[/i], and nothing but the truth then they may not withold part of the truth without breaking their oath. but they can plead the fifth and refuse to offer a part of the truth there.

I think pleading the fifth is a lot like this mental reservation, you refuse to say anything on that subject and as such you are not lying.