scripture vs philosophy

[Guest JeffCR07]

Well, I'd be glad to sit down with you and explain in detail how the future can be known with certainty AND free will preserved, if you are willing to be patient and take the time to learn it. Because these [i]have[/i] been shown, definitively by modal logicians, to be compatible.

Also, just as a side note, I would think it should be more uncomfortable thinking of a God who could regret or change his mind in exactly the same way that we do. That reduces God to just a really really powerful creature, rather than that than which nothing greater can be conceived.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[eddieloudog]

Jeff,

I always wondered about our free will and God's omnipotence. I took 2 philosophy classes and one Philosophy of religion, taught by a professed 'Pragmatic Theist" but none of them helped me to answer this question. So have at it.

How do we as people of faith reconcile the seeming incompatibility of free will and God's timetable?

i have a feeling that this is gonna be good!

Rev, i'm dwntwn, near to St John the Evangelist! Gonna relocate @ end of Jan, though, back east to get married and be with friends and family!

[Paphnutius]

Speaking of Scripture ..."God's ways are not our ways..." Isiaih...ohh I forget the chapter and verse....

Just speaking about God not being like us that is....

[Theoketos]

First look at this list of citations in the Summa Theologica.

[url="http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/summa/"]http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/summa/[/url]

Then there is a book that you would be really interested in:

[url="http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&id=XWGgcVHkX3EC&dq=Thomas+Aquinas+Scripture+Philosophy+Resurrection&prev=http://books.google.com/books%3Fq%3DThomas%2BAquinas%2BScripture%2BPhilosophy%2BResurrection&pg=PP1&printsec=0&lpg=PP1&sig=E5u87sStZZKljHD2IKkQUrhwGns"]http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&hl=...jHD2IKkQUrhwGns[/url]

[Church Punk]

Scripture and philosophy go hand and hand. Scripture is required to provide us with the truth the God in the Word. Philosophy allows us to intellectually and logically apply scripture to our lives.

It would be easier to debate in terms of philosophy to non-Christian type people as they have no root or basis in scripture, thus philosophy can make them understand where we are coming from. Through philosophy our religious beliefs can be paralleled and then logically thought out.

In this sense East can meet West. The believer can become a convert, the Gospel can be preached.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='eddieloudog' date='Dec 19 2005, 09:40 AM']Jeff,

I always wondered about our free will and God's omnipotence. I took 2 philosophy classes and one Philosophy of religion, taught by a professed 'Pragmatic Theist" but none of them helped me to answer this question. So have at it. 

How do we as people of faith reconcile the seeming incompatibility of free will and God's timetable?   

  i have a feeling that this is gonna be good!

Rev, i'm dwntwn, near to St John the Evangelist! Gonna relocate @ end of Jan, though, back east to get married and be with friends and family!
[right][snapback]830499[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I have posted extensively on this in other threads, but I will try to make this short and concise.

God sees all of time as if it were a single present moment. Thus, God knows all things that happen, because they [i]do[/i] happen. This knowledge, however, does not [i]cause[/i] them to happen.

To use an analogy, lets say I see Rev throw a ball at your head. You are not looking at the ball, but rather, you are gazing off into space. I know that the ball will hit your head, but my knowledge does not [i]cause[/i] the ball to hit your head. Thus, my foreknowledge is non-causal.

To put it in modal logic terms: the proposition that "God necessarily knows that X will do Y" is not equivalent to the proposition that "God knows that X will necessarily do Y."

Therefore, Foreknowledge is not incompatible with free will.

[Myles Domini]

Not this again...

INXC
Myles

[eddieloudog]

Wow Theoketos! That is a HUGE link! I am going to have to take some serious time after finals to read that! The book will have to wait, though.

Thanks!

Jeff - you are wise for your age!

Sorry that u are swamped, but thanks for answering my question.

But I still have a problem. I completely agree with you that God's fore knowledge of something happening doesn’t cause it to happen, but didn't God create the world? In as much, God is not part of it, right? He is something outside of this universe cuz he created it. This is a slippery slope cuz:

If God did make the universe and all things in it, he set off the series of events that have led up to us talking about this. So he created this present reality, the reality before today and the future reality all at once. We are just experiencing this present second cuz we are limited, unlike God. So, following this thread, He created this reality and thus created the situation AND how we will react in that situation long before we were even here.

So, now, yesterday and tomorrow are all created and we just have to pass through time to experience them. So this is the will of God cuz he created all. Thus, the free will issue is a non-issue cuz free will doesn’t exist to God, only to the limited 'us'. So, Adam and Eve had to fall so Christ had to come so that we can be with God. BUT all of this was known and created by God.

This also brings into the debate about why God created Lucifer if he was to fall.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='eddieloudog' date='Dec 20 2005, 09:36 AM']Wow Theoketos! That is a HUGE link! I am going to have to take some serious time after finals to read that! The book will have to wait, though.

Thanks! 

Jeff - you are wise for your age!

Sorry that u are swamped, but thanks for answering my question.

But I still have a problem. I completely agree with you that God's fore knowledge of something happening doesn’t cause it to happen, but didn't God create the world? In as much, God is not part of it, right? He is something outside of this universe cuz he created it. This is a slippery slope cuz:

If God did make the universe and all things in it, he set off the series of events that have led up to us talking about this. So he created this present reality, the reality before today and the future reality all at once. We are just experiencing this present second cuz we are limited, unlike God. So, following this thread, He created this reality and thus created the situation AND how we will react in that situation long before we were even here. 

So, now, yesterday and tomorrow are all created and we just have to pass through time to experience them. So this is the will of God cuz he created all. Thus, the free will issue is a non-issue cuz free will doesn’t exist to God, only to the limited 'us'. So, Adam and Eve had to fall so Christ had to come so that we can be with God. BUT all of this was known and created by God. 

This also brings into the debate about why God created Lucifer if he was to fall. 
[right][snapback]831657[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

There are two problems with your analysis here, and I will try to explain them as clearly as I can.

First, we must always remember that creation is [i]ab initio temporis[/i] - the world was created in time, rather than from eternity. Thus, God did not "create" the future [i]ex nihilo[/i] (from nothing) in the same way that God created everything in the beginning [i]ex nihilo[/i]. "In the beginning" God created, and what came to be in the future came to be from that. Thus, God did not directly cause every state of affairs in every "slice of time" to be the way it was through the act of creation.

Second, your argument seems to grant a totally deterministic worldview - Namely, every single thing has a cause outside of itself, and therefore, if I knew every variable at one point in time, I would be able to correctly predict everything that would be in the future. But this is quite a presupposition to grant. Depending on your interpretation of Quantum Physics, this view has been disproven. If the world is not entirely deterministic - if some things have no cause outside of themselves, then this argument fails, because it would allow for something like free will.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Myles' date='Dec 20 2005, 12:18 AM']Not this again...

INXC
Myles
[right][snapback]831441[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

hahaha, I'm trying not to get into all the nitty gritty again, lol :

[N/A Gone]

im sorry bro, but not to be a pain, this still assumes we are determined. Because it isnt a matter of "god" lacking, rather that we have not determined what we will do yet. Thus, it isnt there to be known. No matter what view of time you hold to.

sorry im such a pain on this

[Aloysius]

within time, yes we haven't decided yet. and nothing determines our actions except our will. but outside of time, all those things that our will has and will determine can be seen. to God, who exists outside of time, a thousand years is like a single day. He sees all moments at once. thus He can see everything that our will has done and will do, and it doesn't alter the fact that it is our will doing it.

See, I even used scripture : :

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 21 2005, 09:42 AM']im sorry bro, but not to be a pain, this still assumes we are determined. Because it isnt a matter of "god" lacking, rather that we have not determined what we will do yet. Thus, it isnt there to be known. No matter what view of time you hold to.

sorry im such a pain on this
[right][snapback]832747[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

You're not a pain! Its good that you are asking these questions!

Again, you are still equivocating between two meanings of "determined." On the one hand, there is causal determination, and on the other hand, there is the determination that exists because something is the case (non-causal).

Something may be the case, like, for example, it may be the case that God knows that I will not go to the mall tomorrow (I don't need to buy anymore presents), and in this respect, my going to the mall is determined. But there is nothing that [i]causes[/i] me not to go to the mall tomorrow - I am not forced by anything - and so in this respect, I am not determined.

Thus, human free will can exist (because the only thing that causes me not to go to the mall tomorrow is my own free will) while at the same time the future is determined (because God knows that I am not going to the mall tomorrow).

In essence, God doesn't know the future because He magically sees some mysterious power that causes me to will what I will in the future, but rather, He knows the future because He sees what I am doing in the future in exactly the same way that He sees what I am doing in the present (and [i]no one[/i] would say that I have no free will in the present just because God knows what I am going right now!).

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Carolou]

I don't know but my oldest brother went to a catholic college(Thomas Moore) and majored in philosophy.

That's my contribution to this thread, lol.

[zdog042]

Rev, you just can't get away from the whole "God-in-time" thing. Can God know the future and still not predestine (<--spelling?) us? Good question. :

I like Philosophy. I'm a philosopher through and through. And, suprisingly enough, I don't use the bible. I come from a church background that was sola scriptura, but never put any stock in it because I could see the flaws in it from a young age.

But, I agree with some people on here, debating with Catholics is completely different from debating with Protestants. Protestants will typically use lots of scripture to back up their point, whereas Catholics tend to use lots of Church Fathers/Church Documents/etc. Granted, the documents are based on scripture and coincide with the teachings therein, but I've noticed the same thing, that Protestants just use more scripture references than Catholics.

Also, you should move your "God experiences time as a single now" -vs- "God sees time as an web" argument to another thread to make it easier for the people that hide on the side to watch (like me ) to follow the debate. Just an idea - I like listening to this topic of debate and would like to be able to follow it easier.