Cardinal Ratzinger

[Cam42]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Dec 17 2005, 10:04 AM']why interpretation? I dont want to sound mean but that reminds me of protestantism. too much interpretation, not enough of just plain ol' undestanding.
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You're right. Thanks for supporting hot stuff and me. Then-Card. Ratzinger was not speaking about the morality of the death penalty, but rather the ability of one to receive Holy Communion.

All he is saying is that one who supports the death penalty cannot be held from receiving Holy Communion. His position on the death penalty is given in a later post, by me.

[qfnol31]

Being allowed to receive Holy Communion means you are in the Church.

If you're against the Church on a teaching then you cannot receive Holy Communion.

It follows from this that if a person disagrees with the Holy Father on the application of the death penalty, then that person does not revoke being Catholic, but remains in full Communion with the Church.

That is the context of the message, especially viewed in other such documents as Vatican II.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 17 2005, 03:19 PM']You're right.  Thanks for supporting hot stuff and me.  Then-Card. Ratzinger was not speaking about the morality of the death penalty, but rather the ability of one to receive Holy Communion.

All he is saying is that one who supports the death penalty cannot be held from receiving Holy Communion.  His position on the death penalty is given in a later post, by me.
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[quote] There may be a  There may be a [b]legitimate[/b] diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/quote]
A legitimate diversity of opinion - that's a key phrase.
He says that diversity of opinion is legitimate on these issues (i.e. -that one is not morally bound to agree with aparticular Pope's opinion on the application of war and the death penalty.)
He is not simply saying that differing opinions on the application of the death penalty are less sinful or heretical, meriting less punishment.
If "diverse opinions" on this topic were in themselves wrong, he would never use the word "legitimate" to describe them.

Cam, while Card. Ratzinger said there may be a legitimate diversity of opinion on the death penalty, you declare otherwise, and seem to want to anathemize all those who disagree with you.

No Popes prior to John Paul II believed the death penalty to be almost always wrong, so this must be held as a matter of personal opinion, rather than dogmatic teaching.
If I am not Catholic or not "pro-life" for disagreeing, then I must join nearly every Pope and Catholic for nearly 2000 years of the Church in being such.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Dec 17 2005, 08:36 AM']nope Camster and I are on the same page
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Well then come discuss. This thread's here for you.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 17 2005, 07:44 PM']A legitimate diversity of opinion - that's a key phrase.
He says that diversity  of opinion is legitimate on these issues (i.e. -that one is not morally bound to agree with aparticular Pope's opinion on the application of war and the death penalty.)
He is not simply saying that differing opinions on the application of the death penalty are less sinful or heretical, meriting less punishment.
If "diverse opinions" on this topic were in themselves wrong, he would never use the word "legitimate" to describe them.

Cam, while Card. Ratzinger said there may be a  legitimate diversity of opinion on the death penalty, you declare otherwise, and seem to want to anathemize all those who disagree with you.

No Popes prior to John Paul II believed the death penalty to be almost always wrong, so this must be held as a matter of personal opinion, rather than dogmatic teaching.
If I am not Catholic or not "pro-life" for disagreeing, then I must join nearly every Pope and Catholic for nearly 2000 years of the Church in being such.
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And you totally misunderstand the point of the statement made by Pope Benedict. He was NOT speaking about the morality of the death penalty. He was speaking about the ability of one to receive Holy Communion. It is completely consistent with what I have been saying all along.

I agree that he is not saying that it is sinful or heretical to support the death penalty. Show me where I have said that. That is a misinterpretation and a misread of my position. This also speaks to Zach. Nowhere have I attacked the Catholicity of a person because they accept the death penalty. NOWHERE. However, you assume that I think that of you, I most certainly do not, nor do I to anyone who is Catholic and supports the death penalty.

However, you assume that I delcare one who does not agree with me to be such. That is flat out wrong and it goes to show that you have not read or paid attention to anything that I have written.

Again, I am going to ask you to show me where I have said that this is a dogmatic statement. Or that this is a matter of dogma. It is a matter of doctrine, but not dogma, again, you misrepresent my position.

Finally, you analysis is flat out wrong. It is not a matter of support for the death penalty, it is not even a matter of application of the death penalty. It is simply used as an example to show that capital punishment is not on the same level of morals as euthanasia or abortion. Something I have never denied nor have I ever expected to be discussed.

But to use this statement as a blanket acceptance of the application of the death penalty is taking it out of context. It is not. If you want to look to Pope Benedict's view on the application of the death penalty look to post #6. That is his view.

[qfnol31]

I'm using it to show legitimate diversity can exist. That's how the thread got started, and that's the topic of this thread.

[Paphnutius]

If I might interject (I should probably duck behind something lest I fear flying objects) I think that Cam was restating what Ratzinger said with an emphasis on the distinction between the admittance of a possiblity (X MAY happen) and the confrimation of a reality (X DOES happen).

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 17 2005, 09:37 PM']I'm using it to show legitimate diversity can exist.  That's how the thread got started, and that's the topic of this thread. 
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And you are using it incorrectly. And I have shown you how you are using it incorrectly, on several threads.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 17 2005, 09:52 PM']If I might interject (I should probably duck behind something lest I fear flying objects) I think that Cam was restating what Ratzinger said with an emphasis on the distinction between the admittance of a possiblity (X MAY happen) and the confrimation of a reality (X DOES happen).
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Correct. Finally, someone other than hot stuff gets it and will vocalize it.

[qfnol31]

Is that then the only reason that you think that this doesn't apply? Or are there separate reasons that you think "legitimate diversity" is taken out of context?

I think hot stuff said because this document isn't Magisterial (maybe only this part?)

You have said that it is taking this thing out of context to use only that one phrase.

And I think lastly you have said "may" does not imply there absolutely is.

Just trying to get a better understanding...does that align so far?

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 17 2005, 10:39 PM']Is that then the only reason that you think that this doesn't apply?  Or are there separate reasons that you think "legitimate diversity" is taken out of context?

I think hot stuff said because this document isn't Magisterial (maybe only this part?)

You have said that it is taking this thing out of context to use only that one phrase.

And I think lastly you have said "may" does not imply there absolutely is.

Just trying to get a better understanding...does that align so far?
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I have told you why several times. hot stuff will explain for himself, just realize that he and I are on the same page. Don't assume that your thoughts about hot stuff's position are necessarily accurate though.

[qfnol31]

Okay, what about your portion though? That you should answer I think.

[Cam42]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 17 2005, 11:59 PM']Okay, what about your portion though?  That you should answer I think. 
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I gave my position. Go back and find it. I am not going to restate it. It has been posited on this thread, and several others.

Again, if hot stuff wants to answer, he can. I have already stated my position. I have defended my position. You have yet to be able to refute my position. It is not my fault if you don't understand. I can't make it any clearer.

[Jaime]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 17 2005, 09:39 PM']Is that then the only reason that you think that this doesn't apply?  Or are there separate reasons that you think "legitimate diversity" is taken out of context?

I think hot stuff said because this document isn't Magisterial (maybe only this part?)

You have said that it is taking this thing out of context to use only that one phrase.

And I think lastly you have said "may" does not imply there absolutely is.

Just trying to get a better understanding...does that align so far?
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I've stated my take on it as well Zach. If the document you go by was about the death penalty, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But it wasn't. It was about the Eucharist.

And there isn't another Church document that makes the same or similar statement.

On the other hand Cam and I have provided many Church documents that state the Church's position and desire to see the abolition of the death penalty.

And you've dismissed them

[Guest Rick777]

Does anyone know if John Kerry has spoken about not being able to recieve the Holy Eucharist