jasJis Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 18 2005, 05:32 PM']No, actually, I mean rare, if practically non-existent. Sorry to disappoint you jasJis. I have clarified this way too many times. Try a new tactic. For the record. I accept the catechetical position. End of story. [right][snapback]830001[/snapback][/right] [/quote]And I have not gone against the catechetical position. We disagree on what 'rare' means. These are your words: "Now, if Tookie were a threat to billions, I would be more inclined to take a harder look, however this is certainly not the case." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 18 2005, 11:17 PM']And I have not gone against the catechetical position. We disagree on what 'rare' means. These are your words: "Now, if Tookie were a threat to billions, I would be more inclined to take a harder look, however this is certainly not the case." [right][snapback]830287[/snapback][/right] [/quote] c'est la vie.... Wrong thread, btw..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadreSantiago Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 [img]http://www.infoimagination.org/ps/kerry/images/rove_wanted.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 17 2005, 08:35 PM']Cam, I do put it in there. You don't give me enough credit, I think. [right][snapback]829167[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm not sure that is the type of person you should be worried about getting 'credit' from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifescanticle Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 16 2005, 09:56 AM']I know this has to do with another thread, but in a way it is separate. So in theory: What do you believe is a just punishment for committing high treason? For instance, if I am guilty of leaking information regarding the war in Iraq to insurgents that leads directly to the death of thousands of US soldiers, should I be punished? What is an appropriate punishment? [right][snapback]828018[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Life in prison would appropriate, no parole and only the necessities to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 [quote name='PadreSantiago' date='Dec 20 2005, 06:06 PM'][img]http://www.infoimagination.org/ps/kerry/images/rove_wanted.jpg[/img] [right][snapback]832119[/snapback][/right] [/quote] ahaha. The ignorance....ooohhh the ignorance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 21 2005, 08:59 AM']I'm not sure that is the type of person you should be worried about getting 'credit' from. [right][snapback]832593[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thanks for the compliment. And you have the moral authority to make such a statement, how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I guess I am the one who inspired this thread. So let me clarify. I place terrorism and treason in a special category of capital crimes, because they are not simply aimed at the destruction of an individual or individuals, but the very existence of a society, at the common good. If the existence of a society is threatened, whether by anarchy or revolution, that society has the duty to defend itself and the common goods of justice, order and peace. Revolutionaries, terrorists and traitors, thus are in a special category as they fundamentally and intrinsically threaten the foundations of society. Any group that seeks the violent overthrow of a state should be treated seriously and it stands to reason that any group that has a serious intention to overthrow a government, would think nothing of breaking a comrade out of prison or kidnapping or hijacking innocents in order to exchange their comrade for the hostages. A thought experiment: Imagine if the KKK killed as many African-Americans as the Crips have in the past 20 years (numbering in the thousands). Now imagine that the Grand Imperial Dragon of the KKK was convicted of killing four people. Further imagine that he then wrote two children's books. Do you think Hollywood and Europe would be crying for clemency or even release? Or, like Timothy McVeigh, do you think he would have been dead within a few years of his crimes, rather than two decades later? But that is a side issue, my main issue is that it is consistent with the CCC to say that high-ranking members of international terrorist organizations or revolutionary organizations may be executed because they are an inherent danger to the stability and order of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I think that you are oversimplifying things by simply saying that all Tookie Williams did was "wrote two children's books." What about the [u]Tookie Protocol For Peace[/u]? What about the fact that for 12 years, he had not been a problem inmate? What about the 5 years (minimum) that he has not had any affiliation with the Crips? I think that it is a disservice to limit what he has done to only one aspect. Couple that with everything else he has acheived and the argument for clemency becomes stronger. Tookie was no longer a danger to society.....hence the appeal for clemency......a chance to re-evaluate his case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Dec 21 2005, 02:11 PM']I think that you are oversimplifying things by simply saying that all Tookie Williams did was "wrote two children's books." What about the [u]Tookie Protocol For Peace[/u]? What about the fact that for 12 years, he had not been a problem inmate? What about the 5 years (minimum) that he has not had any affiliation with the Crips? I think that it is a disservice to limit what he has done to only one aspect. Couple that with everything else he has acheived and the argument for clemency becomes stronger. Tookie was no longer a danger to society.....hence the appeal for clemency......a chance to re-evaluate his case. [right][snapback]832991[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote]A thought experiment: Imagine if the KKK killed as many African-Americans as the Crips have in the past 20 years (numbering in the thousands). Now imagine that the Grand Imperial Dragon of the KKK was convicted of killing four people. Further imagine that he then wrote two children's books. Do you think Hollywood and Europe would be crying for clemency or even release? Or, like Timothy McVeigh, do you think he would have been dead within a few years of his crimes, rather than two decades later? [/quote] But that was another thread. Let's limit the "Tookie" references in this thread folks. There is another dead horse thread for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Tookie is a cool name. gosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 What was the topic of this thread anyway? Oh yeah, High Treason!! I still say we should experiment with marooning convicts on desert islands, and maybe mess around with remote labour camps. If I had a choice of being executed or being marooned on a desert island with nothing but a pistol with one shot, I'd take the latter. And to what degree could this be considered execution? It is possible that with enough survival skills the person could live out his life like Tom Hanks in Cast Away. No real ethical dilemma anymore! Sweet, two birds with one stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I apologize for the gratuitious Tookie reference (but we know that that is the dead elephant in the middle of the room (pardon the unintended poor taste pun)). But so far, no one has responded to the substantive part of my position (in any thread) that the risk of escape/communication/inspiration is too high for certain classes of criminals (mob bosses, terrorists, revolutionary leaders, gang founders, etc) to rule out the judicious use of capital punishment. And this is perfectly consistent with the CCC. Does anyone (cam?) disagree with this position? If not, then one *could* defend the initial conviction and sentencing of Tookie. Right? But back to the matter at hand. High Treason. I am leery of saying that societies have a right to this, because it would be the first one abused. The worse a regime, the more likely that they would execute traitors (just look at Stalinist Russia). However, this is potentially the most dangerous to a free, peaceful society and could potentially endanger the common good. Therefore, I think that execution of Traitors cannot be ruled out. And one more Tookie question. If his books were written to tell potential gang members that gangs are bad, based on his experience, why are their cute white kids on the covers of both his books? (ok, the girl might be hispanic) [img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0823923452.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img] [img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0823923460.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img] I mean, are these really his target audience? I can just imaging a Berkely peace activist reading it to her lily-white five year old (dressed in organic cotton), warning him to stay away from gangs. Wouldn't it be better to have put an 8-yr-old black boy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Enough with the Tookie. I mean it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 [quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Dec 21 2005, 05:15 PM']Enough with the Tookie. I mean it. [right][snapback]833098[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The ninja has spoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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