Holy Spirit/ "eternal security"

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I was really getting somewhere in discussing OSAS with a Protestant, when after I brought up John 6:66 and pointed out that it was BELIEVERS who walked away, he responded that it was because eternal security wasn't present until after the Spirit was given (and cited John7;39).

He also says this is why Peter denied Jesus prior to the Holy Spirit's coming, but didn't (and "couldn't" afterwards, which is why Peter was able to be faithful through his own death).

Any help?

[Theoketos]

At the very least that implies that Peter would never sin again after the Spirit came. BUT CLEARLY Peter makes a mistakes again. Biblically St. Paul has to chide him for improper table fellowship...and then Peter runs away from Rome asking Domini Quo Vadis in accepted Tradition.

You have them on the run, press them further with whether sins have consequences after they are saved, and if not is that really just? And if so what are those consequences?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Dec 15 2005, 10:05 AM']I was really getting somewhere in discussing OSAS with a Protestant, when after I brought up John 6:66 and pointed out that it was BELIEVERS who walked away, he responded that it was because eternal security wasn't present until after the Spirit was given (and cited John7;39).
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so, does this mean that all the faithful who died before Jesus did aren't in heaven right now? Abraham and Moses could not be assured of their salvation? i thought Abraham was "saved" by his faith (see Rom 4).

also, point out that when Jesus calls his audience to have faith and tells them that they will be saved by it, he does not say, "wait and believe in me until after i die" or "you can believe in me, but it won't mean anything until after i die." his appeal is urgent. they must believe in him NOW.

the point is that, if OSAS is in the bible, it must be relevant to all people. if not, it is logically inconsistent.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

good points... the dicussion has somewhat moved now to the topic of "salvation" vs. "inheritance"... he's claiming a person can be "saved" but lose their "inheritance"... I'm still waiting for his scriptural basis for this.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

same people, different topic...

Prior to Vatican II, did the Church force converts from other Christian denominations to be (re)baptized??

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Dec 16 2005, 09:04 AM']same people, different topic...

Prior to Vatican II, did the Church force converts from other Christian denominations to be (re)baptized??
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The Church never "rebaptizes." The Church recongizes only one Baptism as stated in the Creed, but the question is, "Was it a valid Baptism?" So one who converted would have to answer some questions, and the denominitation from which they were coming would also be taken into consideration.

The reason is because some non-Catholic Christians have the same intent and valid enough form to be considered a real Baptism. If the person who was doing the baptizing had the right intent then it is most likely valid.

There are some (e.g. Mormons I think) that we do not consider valid for one reason or another.

Also, I think I finally figured out what OSAS means from this context: [b]O[/b]nce [b]S[/b]aved [b]A[/b]lways [b]S[/b]aved. Am I correct in that?

Edited December 16, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Yeah, OSAS means "Once Saved Always Saved" (sorry I didn't specify!)

Thanks for the info. I also found a little bit in the reference section.

I'm quickly finding out that eternal security isn't my best topic at debating. I'm not getting anywhere because any passage I point out about being "cut off" or whatever they insist refers only to inheritance--such that, a person is still "saved" but they lose their inheritance (and this inheritance is mostly what I think Catholics would call our rewards which are based on merit/deeds, etc). So confusing. I really need to read a lot more.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Anyone know of any good articles in the reference section (I'm looking.. but there are sooo many in Salvation/Justification section!) about this whole Protestant idea of "inheritance" (which, is funny because it somewhat a sort of purgatory... man, those baptists would be lighting pitchforks if they only realized...)


Here's my problem: any passage I bring up about being "cut off" or what have you they insist refers to our inheritance, which is based on our works and can be given/grown or taken away completely, but we are still "saved". And because I've never encountered this "inheritance" bit as regards Salvation, I'm having some troubles.

[phatcatholic]

yea, i don't have a whole lot of experience w/ that argument either. i don't think there are any articles directly pertaining to that topic. your best bet is the "Salvation: Hope vs. Assurance" entry:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/135"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/135[/url]

look thru the articles in that entry for any exegesis on the scripture passages that they say speak of "inheritance" instead of "salvation". you can also try the Catholic Bible Commentary and Resources entry:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/695"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/695[/url]

or, just list the passages you are working with here and we can tackle them one at a time.

i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Umm, definitely think I "lost" this debate Not because I didn't have any verses handy, or because I couldn't explain my own position.. but because I had nothing to say against their interpretations (which was extrememly frustrating). I'm going to try and explain this from their perspective:

It began with Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt."

The reply to this was that it was talking about "apostasy" but not losing "salvation"... because "salvation" does not depend upon works. One will lose their "inheritance" but not their "salvation" (the basis for this is 1 Corinthians 3:15-- "saved by fire") So a Christian WOULD have to answer for their sins, but this would not affect "salvation", only their "inheritance" which DOES depend on a Christian's good works.

For them, "salvation" for the person is a done deal when they believe--they are "saved" forever, no matter what. The only thing that may waiver and change is the person's "inheritance" which depends on a man's deeds/works.

They also use Romans 3:3: "What then? If some did not believe, will their
unbelief cancel God's faithfulness?" to suggest that God will save a man no matter what so long as he once believed. (This was a little easier to deal with once we examined it in context)

So then John 6:66 was brought up: "After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him." The response was that this was because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to secure their faith in all Jesus taught (another opinion was that the "diciples" were learners, and not necessarily believers)... The Holy Spirit was given after the resurrection of Christ to bring eternal security on the personal and prominent level. The biblical basis for the Holy Spirit's not being given until after the resurrection is John 7:39 "Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." After this, a person could truly be reborn through the Holy Spirit...

Also, they demanded that OSAS is not a license to sin, because our sins do have consequences (on our "inheritance")... so rather than OSAS they would use the term "perserverance of the saints" in such a way that a Christian is uncapable of losing salvation... they may sin, but all was forgiven on the cross, it matters not if they ask forgiveness, because it was already forgiven, the only lost will be their "inheritance"...

Then the following analogies were given: Marriage and Adoption. "Does a marriage start at the wedding or at the death of one of the spouses?Does an adoption bring childhood/parenthood at the signing (start) or when the inheretance is received (end)?
If i start acting unmarried, does that make me unmarried? No, but it ruins the maritial relationship
If i start acting unadopted, does that make me unadopted? No, but it ruins the child/parent relationship."

We are not saved by our works, but by the works of Jesus (which is true). They then proceeded to distinguish between initial (justification), daily (sanctification), and transitional (glorification in Heaven) salvation.



Now, in all this, the only new concern I can think to bring up is the "ruining of the relationship"... what good is a ruined relationship? But I know that the response will be that the relationship is still there on the part of God (and they will cite Romans 3:3 again), but that the "inheritance" will be lost.

So I turned to the only thing that was never answered initially to try and understand this better... but am still waiting on an answer to:
1) Where Christ distinguishes between "inheritance" and "salvation"
2) What exactly "inheritance" is

...for before this discussion, I would've said our inheritance is eternal life... and eternal life=salvation.

Any thoughts?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

thanks for the links phat, I will keep reading.

[Paphnutius]

[color=blue]It began with Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt."[/color]
Okay...who of us can honestly say that we are truly enlightened or have tasted of the heavenly gift? I am not so sure about them, but I have never fully shared in communion with the Holy Spirit. I am not denying that we do not have some foretaste of heaven here on earth, but what I am saying is that Paul is describing something more along the lines of ecstasy and not simply signing my name on a chicklet.

Aquinas would be in agreeance with Paul on this for Aquinas talks about those that have attained the beatific vision can never loose it. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/200504.htm"]Here is the link to the question in the summa. [/url]. Paul, at least to my understanding, is talking about those that have had some supernatural exposure to communion with God cannot be brought back through repentance. He is not speaking about every day Christians, but about those who, as the first verses indicate, who have come to full maturity in the faith. It is important to continue reading. [QUOTE][color=red]For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 [b]But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.[/b] 9 Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of [b]hope until the end[/b], 12 so that you may not be sluggish, [b]but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises[/b]. [/color][/QUOTE]Notice the bolded part. If the land that catches the rain (the Word of God) and bears thorns (bad works) it will be burned. This is not saying it will make it to heaven w/o inheritance, but saying it will be condemned. It is important to emphasis that Paul is speaking about those Christians who receive the Word, yet continue to sin. The latter bolded parts concern the promises. The promise that God has given us is eternal life in itself.

[QUOTE][color=blue]For them, "salvation" for the person is a done deal when they believe--they are "saved" forever, no matter what. The only thing that may waiver and change is the person's "inheritance" which depends on a man's deeds/works.[/color][/QUOTE]I am sure you have pointed out Phil 2:12-13. We are to work out our salvation....

[QUOTE][color=blue]They also use Romans 3:3: "What then? If some did not believe, will their unbelief cancel God's faithfulness?" to suggest that God will save a man no matter what so long as he once believed. (This was a little easier to deal with once we examined it in context)[/color][/QUOTE] I get the impression that you dealt with this one. One should read this in the context of the following verses. [QUOTE]5 But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? [/QUOTE] We are speaking here about covenant. If man breaks the covenant, God will hold to it no matter what, meaning that He will have to inflict punishment.

[QUOTE][color=blue]So then John 6:66 was brought up: "After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him." The response was that this was because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to secure their faith in all Jesus taught (another opinion was that the "diciples" were learners, and not necessarily believers)... The Holy Spirit was given after the resurrection of Christ to bring eternal security on the personal and prominent level. The biblical basis for the Holy Spirit's not being given until after the resurrection is John 7:39 "Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." After this, a person could truly be reborn through the Holy Spirit... [/color][/QUOTE]Here I would ask how they can support that the Spirit was given for "security." They are correct in saying that the Church received the Spirit on Pentecost, but they still have yet to show that the Spirit was given for assurance. This seems like a red herring here...

[QUOTE[color=blue]]"Does a marriage start at the wedding or at the death of one of the spouses?Does an adoption bring childhood/parenthood at the signing (start) or when the inheretance is received (end)?
If i start acting unmarried, does that make me unmarried? No, but it ruins the maritial relationship
If i start acting unadopted, does that make me unadopted? No, but it ruins the child/parent relationship."[/color][/QUOTE] Marriage starts at the beginning, but one may get a divorce...ask them they started the whole ordeal :

[QUOTE][color=blue]2) What exactly "inheritance" is[/color][/QUOTE]Here are some passages that I found that would point that inheritance means the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 21:38ff[QUOTE][color=red]38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his [b]inheritance[/b].' 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" 41 They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." 42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? 43 Therefore I tell you, the [b]kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it." [/b][/[/color]QUOTE]Notice the producing fruits...

Acts 20:32
[QUOTE][color=red]32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel[/color][/QUOTE]This passage seems to speak about the inheritance as being among the sanctified. If the inheritance is among the sanctified then it must be salvation and not something [b]in addition to salvation[/b]. I think that is their main burden of proof: showing that Christ promised something in addition to salvation.

Ephisians 1:13[QUOTE][color=red]13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.[/[/color]QUOTE] This is an interesting passage in light of this discussion. This would appear to counter act their own argument for if we can loose our inheritance through bad works then the must deny this passage which says that the Holy Spirit is the garuntee of our inheritance. So which is it? Can we loose inheritance through works? Or is the Holy Spirit the garuntee of our inheritance as stated here? If this passage is understood correctly, it will become clear that the inheritance is referring to salvation and not some additional thing.

The Catholic way of understanding this is that the Holy Spirit is indeed the garuntee of our salvation (inheritance), but that means that one must die with the Holy Spirit. This is commonly expressed in our understanding as dieing in a state of grace. If we are in a state of grace we have the Holy Spirit living in us and thus have a garuntee of inheriting everlasting life for God would not reject one who is alive in the Spirit. The point is that we do not doubt God's grace of faithfulness, but we doubt our own ability to remain in faith. The flesh is weak and is able to fall mortally, meaning that we can reject God by our mortal sin. For when a person sins mortally he expells grace from his soul and thus the Holy Spirit. This is because the Holy Spirit dwells in a person that believes and has faith. We, as you know, profess that we are justified through our faith completed with works, this is because God works through faith in a person. So salvation is not assured because one can get a "divorce" from the covenant by his actions.

I hope that was clear...and orthodox... Reading the following verses will help in understanding. [QUOTE][color=red]18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious [i]inheritance [/i]in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of [b]his power in us who believe[/b], according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, [/color][/QUOTE]

Col 3:24
[QUOTE] [color=red]24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality. [/color][/QUOTE] Here we notice the use of the article "the" meaning that there is one inheritance (eternal life).

Heb 9:15[QUOTE][color=red]15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant[/color][/QUOTE] Notice once again the use of the article "the." It is stronger here since Paul is speaking of ONE eternal inheritance.

1 Peter 1:3-5
[QUOTE][color=red]3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and to an [b]inheritance [/b]which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are guarded through faith for a [b]salvation [/b]ready to be revealed in the last time.[/color][/QUOTE] Here, quite possibly, shows the strongest identification between the inheritance and salvation. Our inheritance comes from Christ's death on the cross. That was eternal life. Fin.




I am sorry my quotes did not work

[thessalonian]

I've heard this arguement that ES didn't start till after pentecost. But there's a problem Then jesus was lying to them in John 3:16. That's supposed to be the verse of verses for ES/OSAS. But he was telling them it was available and it was really not. There are other takes by Protestants on this. Some say it was always available but then they have to deal with David's penetential Psalm 51 which makes it pretty clear. Also Ez 3 and 33 which talk about the righteous becoming unrighteous. The whole thing is just to contrived and one finds a supposed solution and you shoot holes in it and they just ignore you. I also like to ask how one can be severed from or cut off from something they weren't attached to (see Gal 5 "severed from Christ"/Rom 11 "you too will be cut off"). Or how one can fall from what they were never in. (Gal 5, you have fallen from grace). It is nonsense to say to someone standing under a tree. You fell from that tree. But if they are laying on the ground in agony from the fall, then you might come to such a conclusion that they were in the tree.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 17 2005, 10:26 PM']I've heard this arguement that ES didn't start till after pentecost.  But there's a problem  Then jesus was lying to them in John 3:16.  That's supposed to be the verse of verses for ES/OSAS.  But he was telling them it was available and it was really not.  There are other takes by Protestants on this.  Some say it was always available but then they have to deal with David's penetential Psalm 51 which makes it pretty clear.  Also Ez 3 and 33 which talk about the righteous becoming unrighteous.  The whole thing is just to contrived and one finds a supposed solution and you shoot holes in it and they just ignore you.  I also like to ask how one can be severed from or cut off from something they weren't attached to (see Gal 5 "severed from Christ"/Rom 11 "you too will be cut off").  Or how one can fall from what they were never in.  (Gal 5, you have fallen from grace).  It is nonsense to say to someone standing under a tree.  You fell from that tree.  But if they are laying on the ground in agony from the fall, then you might come to such a conclusion that they were in the tree.
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Yeah.... but all my "cut off" verses they claim refer only to "inheritance" and not salvation.

I asked what exactly "inheritance" is and so far my only answer is "what you get"... so now I'm waiting for a response to "what is it that we get?"

When I asked about distinguishing between inheritance and salvation they keep providing verses most Catholics would use in support of purgatory (i.e., 1 Corinthians 3:15) or in support of good works (Luke 19:11-27)

[thessalonian]

So you can be "SEVERED FROM CHRIST" "FALLEN FROM GRACE" and that's just loss of inheretince. How contrived. You haven't lost anything. They've lost their minds. So what about John 3:16 supposedly being about OSAS when they say OSAS didn't start till after pentecost? Do they see the pickle this puts them in? It has Jesus telling them about a security that is not available yet. There are other verses they like for OSAS as well such as John 10:28 I think it is. These are a lie if their theology is true. They need to put themselves in the context of the time, rather than today and their shallow thinking and Godfare easy ticket to heaven easy believism. It's a damnable lie.