ZAO

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

JMJ
AMDG
MPCE

"Demons HATE music. Music lifts a human person's feelings. Rock (and I can say that with alot of music) can lift a person's feelings...can lift these feelings to God?"

Who told you that demons hate music? Yes, they hate everything and that would include music. But that does not mean that they like anything either. To like is good. If something ruins souls they will make use of it, but they don't hate it or like it. Now you said that bands just use their voices differently. Here I would like to bring up some basic theology to maybe help you realize why I would say screaming like demons is bad of itself. God did not create anything evil because He can only create good things. Now you ask well then what is evil if it is not created? It is a privation (a lack of) a due good. It is the use of something created to be good, in a bad way. Satan was the greatest creation of God, but Satan decided to reject that good and pervert it. Sin is the same. It is taking something good, sex for example, and instead of using it as an expression of a higher thing (love) within the Sacrament of marriage, it makes it an end = lust. So, what I am getting at with all this, is that this same thing can happen with the human voice. Instead of using it to sound like the voices of Heaven or just to create beauty, some pervert its use (demons) and make it sound disgusting and dark. I have a problem when people mimic the demons, no matter what their intention is, because the act - gutteral screaming - is wrong. I really don't think that you can sound like a demon and be a servant of God. I truly like the intentions of these bands, but that does not make their act right or good. They have not been educated in this area, because they have not been gifted with the richness of our Church, but I hope they will find it soon.


As to what David said about lust. What you say is somewhat true. You have to face lust. But to say you offer your lust to God is not enough. And to say that fighting a desire to lust is repression or suppression is false. That is false sex education. What you should do with these desire is this: First, you say no to lust as you would cocaine. Then, you take another step that will keep you from becoming Puritanical and thinking the sexual act is dirty: you train yourself to say that if God wills it I will give myself to my future wife through this physical expression of my sexuality, but I will not seek sex. You say that sex is beautiful but it is not what I seek. You say that if You will it, teach me to be able to love my future spouse to the point that I would be able to marry her and never have sex. Sex is not necessary. Of course in marriage it will occur, but it is not the goal of marriage. Sex is to be an expression of a love that already exists, not love itself. It is to be both unitive and procreative and never just one or the other. When you see it at this level you will never have to worry about lust because you are not seeking the sexual act in itself. Fr. Larry said it well when he said that you must not lust, even in marriage, and that we should pray that we may have this gift. (Don't take that as a word-for-word quote). As to what you say about "raw emotion," I would say in my lack of knowledge, that this is dangerous. When you say "raw" it would mean unanalyzed and without direction, and you will make your human, rational, self, into an irrational animal. God has given us the gift of the ability to control our emotions, to direct them, so I think that when you say "raw" you run the risk of being "lazy" in your human-ness, and say "I can't control it." I am merely a layperson so I think you should bring it up with the awesome priests at SPC. You are truly blessed to be near such great spiritual directors. Don't take that for granted.

And to OliverOrder....I am glad that you are going to read these books. You will benefit greatly from them.

Servus

[frozencell]

[quote name='KnightoftheImmaculate1' date='Dec 28 2005, 05:36 PM']You need to read Fr. Amorth's books.  Now you can't say "music is music" and "lyrics make a difference" at the same time.  You contradict yourself.  If "music is music" then I should morally be allowed to listen to pornographic rap and Satanic rock.  Obviously, you didn't mean that.[/quote]

[quote]Did I ever say that demons would say this? Those lyrics quote Holy Scripture, but Jesus warned of the fact that Satan may use Scripture, so yes they could say these things or look at them.  That does not mean that they do not fear them, but they will do what it takes to destroy souls.  Demons may appear as the Blessed Virgin Mary and make the scent of roses.  They despise and fear Mary, but that doesn't mean they will not make use of what appears to be sacred and good to destroy souls.[/quote]

As you have already stated, demons take what is good and pervert it to make the outcome bad. So by your own theology, rock music and hardcore music is good to start out with and then is perverted by the devil. I fail to see the reasoning in which Satan would go to such great lengths to "pervert" the music of a band with lyrics that praise and edify God and a godly lifestyle. I don't really understand how that's going to smell of elderberries people into hell. I listen to a lot of "angry" music. I have a very hard job where I average about 60 hours a week (on a good week), and things get to me a lot. I listen to hardcore and industrial all the time. I have two choices: bands like Zao and Circle of Dust or bands like Nine Inch Nails or KMFDM. I choose the former because it not only gets out the aggression that I feel, but it makes me feel better, happier. It gets me back to the mood and minset I need to be in to continue my spiritual walk faithfully. Choosing NIN or something of the sort gets out my aggression only for a very short time and just makes me feel worse, less spiritual. Now I'm not saying that the music has these effects on everyone, but to me the lyrics make all the difference in the world. How can you say there is no difference between the two? It's pretty black and white:
ZAO - "He is God, He is God. He is God, He is God.
He is with us, He is God. He is with us, He is God.
In His purpose I will stand.
I've been renewed by the Maker."

NIN - "head like a hole
black as your soul
i'd rather die
than give you control"

Can you honestly say that there is no difference in these?

[quote]The Church is "old school."[/quote]

Thank God, too. But that doesn't mean that we need to keep wearing cassocks or poodle skirts or listening to Buddy Holly (don't get me wrong, I like Buddy).

[quote]You cannot say its just "artistic expression."  If you say that then you must accept without resentment the "art" in a museum in New York (if it is still on display) that portrays Our Lady in a bikini smoking pot, or the image of Our Lord soaked in urine, or Southpark's episode mocking the statues of Our Lady that cry blood, depicting the Holy Father as saying, "She's just menstruating."  I hope you see what I am getting at now.  So my whole objective is to make you think further than just good lyrics and take all the elements into consideration.[/quote]

It is artistic expression. That doesn't mean you have to like it. Your examples of art given [i]are[/i] artistic expression. That doesn't mean that it's not morally offensive. It is. But just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't make it not "art" or "expression". You get into some very dangerous territory when you start saying things you don't like or agree with aren't "art". That can easily be used by the other side to criticize the Catholic Church.

[quote]Shouldn't we control our urge to be angry, as we would any other emotion, and to let it flow freely as it does in that music?[/quote]

Expressing anger does not necessarily mean you're not controlling it.

[quote]The angels of heaven did not defeat the rebels with rage, it was with love and virtue.  They do not praise God with anger, but with love and virtue.[/quote]

It wasn't righteous anger?

[Ziggamafu]

Zao is good stuff; 7 Year Winter and Ghost Psalm are probably my favorite songs.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

I never said that what I don't like in the world of art is not art. I was saying that art can be bad also, and you are not getting why I was bringing that up. It was to challenge the idea that "music is music", in other words, that music is neither good nor bad, brought up by the first guy I was arguing with. You jumped in half way. Yes, lyrics could make a difference. But that is not my point. My point is that Satan is the most dangerous when he appears as an angel of light. So when you say:

"I fail to see the reasoning in which Satan would go to such great lengths to "pervert" the music of a band with lyrics that praise and edify God and a godly lifestyle. I don't really understand how that's going to smell of elderberries people into hell."

I am warning you that such an instance would be what Satan desires most...to seem good, but in reality be deceiving you. Now, you guys are saying that "lyrics make all the difference" but I was not talking about that one aspect of the "Christian" hardcore music. I am talking about the screaming. I think thet intentions of these bands (expressed in their lyrics) are good, but their action is not. For something to be moral it needs to be good in both act and intention. I want to make a comparison to help you understand what I am trying to say: The pro-lifers that go out and bomb clinics have good intentions, but the way in which they try to accomplish the defense of innocent life is wrong. These bands who want to lead souls to Heaven have good intentions, but the way in which they are doing it is not the way they should.

As to righteous anger. Good point. But to add to that I would like to say that what God desires more than justice (which causes righteous anger) is mercy, which is love. Love is more powerful than anger. Now I am not saying you have to be all mushy and panzee-like but I think you know what I mean. The angels were more successful because of their love of God rather than their hatred of the apostate angels. Yes, there comes a time when righteous anger is needed, but it should not be out focus. So, I think it would be time for these bands and those who listen to them to take the next step, and begin to curb the anger. Instead of attracting those souls like us who listen (or used to) listen to hardcore because we want battle and guts and glory kind of stuff, we should start doing it with example. We need more to step up to the plate of martyrdom, to work within the court systems to make new precedents that will stop the homosexual and abortion agendas. We need more people to take the battle to the streets so to speak, rather than just dwelling on the anger with expressing and releasing it in music. Now these other ways may not seem as if they are really expressing our righteous hatred of the apostate angels, but they will work much better. Do you get what I am saying?

Servus

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

The other thing I forgot to add is that why I don't like hardcore music is because it is chaotic. God is order, Hell is chaos.

Servus

[frozencell]

What I'm saying is that since God has created everything, including music, then music is essentially good at the beginning. The music is not good or bad; it's the people associated with the music and the intentions in their hearts that make all the difference in the world. You can't say that music (no matter how loud or fast it is) is from the devil. It's just not true. The devil may use the God-given talents of people to twist the purposes of the music to his whim, but music is intrinsically good in itself.

I think that chaos is a subjective thing in this case. I don't think hardcore is chaotic, but to each his own.

Yes, I agree with you that action is the best way to maintain our morals and way of life. I am not one of those people who just sits on the couch and listens to music, getting angry at everything and not doing anything about it. I take action, too.

[frozencell]

Also, I may be going out on a limb here, (and please don't stone me) but is ZAO [i]really[/i] being anti-Catholic?? If the things you have said are correct and they have stated the fact that they don't think God is with Catholics the way he is with Protestants (and that's the vein of their thinking) then I would say they are [i]not[/i] anti-Catholic.

Why, you ask? Well, isn't that they same way we view Protestants? And we're not anti-Protestant. We consider them our departed brothers and sisters in Christ. We believe that they do not possess the entire faith and truth as full as it can be humanly experienced, but we are not anti-Protestant.

What do you think?

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

Actually we are to be against Protestantism. Yes there are those among them that are saved by their ignorance of the fact that the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, but we can't just say, "oh they are our departed brethren" and go on indifferent. No, it is our duty to bring them home. If that means upsetting them, and making them uncomfortable with where they are at, then by all means we must do it! We need to get them challenging what they believe and if they are honestly seeking the Truth, the only place they will find it is in Christ's Bride, the Church. They challenge us and make many of us feel uncomfortable, when it should be the other way around. We are in the fullness, they need to hear that. I would say that they are anti-Catholic because they use the same deceptive lines I hear from all the Protestants who tell me that the Sacraments are false, and that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a gimic. I don't know how you can say that you are truly a member of the Church militant if you are indifferent to those who oppose us. So, simply, I say don't listen to the music of those who are indifferent to Christ in the Holy Eucharist, where His Sacred Heart is wounded by them, and all those who say that organized religion is unnecessary. And to finish, I would like to say that you interpreted the statement from ZAO in an ideal manner, but that is not what they meant. Since they are Protestants, they are saying like they all do, that the Holy Roman Catholic Church lacks God. That is heresy! To say that the Church that the Omnipotent God created is lacking. You may say that they don't know the full truth so they are innocent, but do they ever study the Church from Her Teachings? I think not. So, now I will really finish...even if you disagree with my understanding of hardcore, I think that you should reconsider supporting those who oppose us.

Servus

[frozencell]

[quote]Actually we are to be against Protestantism.  Yes there are those among them that are saved by their ignorance of the fact that the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, but we can't just say, "oh they are our departed brethren" and go on indifferent.  No, it is our duty to bring them home.  If that means upsetting them, and making them uncomfortable with where they are at, then by all means we must do it!  We need to get them challenging what they believe and if they are honestly seeking the Truth, the only place they will find it is in Christ's Bride, the Church.[/quote]

Anti is "against". I find it encouraging that there are groups of Catholics and Protestants working together to bring the light of Christ to those in much more need. We can't divide ourselves down the middle and hope to accomplish as much. I'm not saying that by any stretch of the imagination that we should water down the Catholic faith to suit Protestants, but being anti-Christian is counter-productive. I agree that we should shift the focus and challenge them more (which I do) and the best way to do that is to work with them, not act the way that some Protestants act toward Catholics.

[quote]I would say that they are anti-Catholic because they use the same deceptive lines I hear from all the Protestants who tell me that the Sacraments are false, and that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a gimic.  I don't know how you can say that you are truly a member of the Church militant if you are indifferent to those who oppose us.[/quote]

I don't think that all Protestants are anti-Catholic. There are the "Chick" type Prots, but I have had many friends who are Protestant and don't have any problem with the teachings and actions of the Catholi church. They just don't feel that it's for them. that's on their heads, not mine.

[quote] And to finish, I would like to say that you interpreted the statement from ZAO in an ideal manner, but that is not what they meant.  Since they are Protestants, they are saying like they all do, that the Holy Roman Catholic Church lacks God.[/quote]

I haven't read the interview that statement was in or anything so I can only read it how it was posted here. If you have the article or a link I would love to read it. I will look for some things on them when I have a little more time, also. And not all Protestants say that the Catholic Church lacks God. I have Prot friends who simply aren't Catholic because they don't feel the need or desire to subject themselves to the Pope.

[quote]So, now I will really finish...even if you disagree with my understanding of hardcore, I think that you should reconsider supporting those who oppose us. 

Servus[/quote]

Are you trying to say I should be Protestant? I [i]was[/i] Protestant for the first 20 years of my life. I know the people and the drill. They are not all the same as you would try to indicate here with these blanket statements.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

In no way am I saying you should be Protestant. I am not trying to avoid this conversation with you and the others, but I have to tell you that I will not be able to respond for at least a few months (this thread will probably be dead by then) and so I am just giving you a head's up before I back off. Oh, and I know that anti- is the same as against. I wasn't trying to cover-up or create euphamism.

Servus Immaculatae -

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

Last thing. When you say "subject themselves to the Pope" you should educate them about the fact that they are seeing the Pope as the end when in reality he is just the visible head of the Church on earth. He is Christ's Vicar, His representative. Maybe that will help them.

Servus