ZAO

[InCircles' brother]

yeah,

i really liked the dvd in that it really showed a difference between the mentalities and points of view of the different Zao members... it seems like the band was hardcore christian almost extreme when they first started and that gradually they evlolved their faith from something hardcore to more subtle... im not sure if thats a bad thing... but the singer now has diffintely brought up some good points about the medicoreness seen in alot of churches... catholic and noncatholic... like when they were told that their music was satanic by a "good" church lady... and how the drummer for the praise and worship band raped his girlfriend... i mean that would make anyone say a thing or two about some hypocritness in churches and the way people look at the "good" church people... i mean honestly no church is perfect because essentially its run by human beings... and human beings will be human beings.

what do you guys think?

[TheOliverOrder88]

I think their story is very interesting. I think their music is very original. As Jessie Smith said, hardcore would not be the same today without "Where Blood and Fire Bring Rest".

One of the songs on Parade of Chaos, the slow one, talks directly about how some churches reacted to them.

I looked in their the liner notes of Funeral of God and found two very interesting things:

1) The picture in the middle of the booklet is a picture of Christ with the Eucharist (bread with cross and cup) in his hands. The whole statue is cracked all over the place.

2) At the very bottom of their thank yous they ask for charities to a group of Benedictine Sisters.


Reading over Ravage Ritual, I am finding some sincerety to their "attack." This I don't think, if interpreted the way I am interpreting it, it is not about the mediocrity

"Turned away by a misrepresentation. Stained glass and white washed tombs. The hearts of those who spoke to you were never homes to the God they tried to show you. They spoke out of prejudice and ritualism. They themselves were lost angels, fold their wings, and weep along with us watching you shun Christ's sacrifice."

Ritualism and the mentioning of Christ's sacrifice, I think its hinting at something more.

I really dont know though. I can find Anti-Catholicism where it isnt. Can anyone see something else in the lyrics?

[frozencell]

And I thought I was the only one I knew who had ever heard of this band. I first heard of this band when Birth... came out. The inside jacket said that they welcomed criticism so I wrote them telling them what I thought of their music and stuff. A few days later I got a personal e-mail back. At my age, I thought that was so freakin' cool! I've listened to the band ever since. I don't think that they are anti-Catholic. I have some Protestant music from bands that I really liked back in my Prot days. If a band is being anti-Catholic you can tell right away. At least in my experience. Like a band called Tourniquet. They made one of my all-time favorite CD's, but on another CD they have a song called "White-Knuckling The Rosary". Even the name conotates anti-Catholic thoughts and the song is very anti in it's message. Other bands are the same way. If it's not readliy apparent then I tend to believe that they were intending there song or thought to something else. And they do seem to support a few select Catholic groups as mentioned above. I have never read anything about them claiming to not be a "Christian" band anymore. I have read an interview or something that said they weren't as "straight-forward" in their lyrics since signing with a major label, but if you read the lyrics it's obvious they haven't watered down the message.

[TheOliverOrder88]

Yep, there is some Anti-Catholicism in Christian metal. I'm guessing they need some angst against something.

And btw, ZAO is not a major label. They're on Ferret.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

Now, I began to like hardcore a while ago, but have come to despise it. Ask yourselves these question? Does the end justify the means? Is this philosophy I just mentioned used in the "Christian" metal/hardcore scene? Have you ever thought about the fact that the only difference in "Christian" hardcore and that used by the Satanists and consecrated to bring destruction to the lives of generations to come or to eliminate them entirely, is a lyrical difference? Have you thought about the fact that those who scream in the hardcore music sound like demons speaking through human beings? Have you seriously read and thought about (if you have read it) Fr. Amorth's comments regarding this music scene in his books on Exorcism? Then ask yourself if you would hand over Zao or any other hardcore bands' CD to the Pope, Christ's Vicar on earth, and not have to try to explain why so-called music you call Christian, is not Satanic? Do you think that the Holy Mother of God approves? Do those in Heaven praise the Almighty Trinity with the screams of those angels who, out of pride, scorn the Throne and work to keep souls from it? Are you, who as a member of the Church, Bride of Christ, reflecting the realities of Heaven to the world with such music? Do you look to Christ, scorned, abandoned, scourged, crowned with thorns, crucified, and mocked, telling him that your "praise" of Him there sounds like the demons of Hell, but it is truly the angelic chants of Heaven? These questions are some of the many that helped me leave the scene. I hope they help you and many others. One last thought...it is true that at times we may have anger, but like any other emotion, are we to let it rage out of control as it does in that music, or are we to control it as we do lust?

Servus

Edited December 27, 2005 by KnightoftheImmaculate1

[TheOliverOrder88]

[quote name='KnightoftheImmaculate1' date='Dec 27 2005, 01:50 PM']Now, I began to like hardcore a while ago, but have come to despise it.  Ask yourselves these question?  Does the end justify the means? Is this philosophy I just mentioned used in the "Christian" metal/hardcore scene?  Have you ever thought about the fact that the only difference in "Christian" hardcore and that used by the Satanists and consecrated to bring destruction to the lives of generations to come or to eliminate them entirely, is a lyrical difference? Have you thought about the fact that those who scream in the hardcore music sound like demons speaking through human beings?  Have you seriously read and thought about (if you have read it) Fr. Amorth's comments regarding this music scene in his books on Exorcism?  Then ask yourself if you would hand over Zao or any other hardcore bands' CD to the Pope, Christ's Vicar on earth, and not have to try to explain why so-called music you call Christian, is not Satanic?  Do you think that the Holy Mother of God approves? Do those in Heaven praise the Almighty Trinity with the screams of those angels who, out of pride, scorn the Throne and work to keep souls from it?  Are you, who as a member of the Church, Bride of Christ, reflecting the realities of Heaven to the world with such music? Do you look to Christ, scorned, abandoned, scourged, crowned with thorns, crucified, and mocked, telling him that your "praise" of Him there sounds like the demons of Hell, but it is truly the angelic chants of Heaven?  These questions are some of the many that helped me leave the scene.  I hope they help you and many others.  One last thought...it is true that at times we may have anger, but like any other emotion, are we to let it rage out of control as it does in that music, or are we to control it as we do lust?

Servus
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I resent that. I don't think its really accurate at all. Music is music. A type of voice does not determine its "wickedness" or "righteousness". I think thats a little old-school type of thought. Why stop there, why not ban "Rock n Roll" because thats supposedly the "Satan's music".
I will agree that some bands use "demonic" influences such as Opeth and Dimmu Borgir. But the fact that they wail and scream does not make them Satanic. Its what they say that is more demonic. Yes, I do think the lyrics matter a whole lot. Do you think music is limited to praise and worship music?

Actually, I would hand my cds over to the Pope. I'm not saying he would enjoy such tunes.

Here's a song that will hopefully change your tune:

In Loving Kindness by ZAO
We are a new creation
the old has gone,
the new has come
Reconciled us to Himself Through Christ Jesus
We will be free,
forever knowing what will become of us
Thank you for the cross
Trusting in the balance
Has tilted me toward righteousness
Lifting my spirit once again
Sinking not in my functioning Inhale,
exhale this over and over again
Looking for tomorrow forgetting about today
Striving to tell them the truth
Dying, dying, dead Through prayer and sacrifice into all the earth
With love and understanding
Now I look to importance
Standing here steadfast
To renew the spirit within me
Do not cast me from your presence
Or take Your Holy Spirit from me


Now if you want to get into demonology and of the such. How would a demon even look at this without fear? How would a demon say this?

Here's more

The Latter Rain by ZAO
A ring of haze encircles the unshrouded truth within
Another seal is broken as the heavens prepare
To break forth in fulfillment

A blanket of deception is layered on sacred writings
Which contain the thoughts of the One who is Almighty God

A sword unsheathed is drawn bringing legions of demons to their knees
By the covenant prepared before the earth itself still
So many choose to warm themselves beneath deception

A ring of haze encircles the unshrouded truth within
Another seal is broken as the heavens prepare
To break forth in fulfillment
A blanket of deception is layered on sacred writings
Which contain the thoughts of the One who is Almighty God
A sword is drawn, unsheathed bringing legions of demons to their knees
By the knowledge of a covenant prepared before the earth itself
Still so many choose to warm themselves beneath deception

As the end draws near and history closes
I pray that the winds and the rain of that which is latter
Will bring clarity and understanding to Your infallible Word
Let the lack of knowledge that destroys us be lifted in Your name
Off

I think your claim is bogus. Type of voice means nothing. It is nothing but artistic expression. The spirit is of the same.

[Joey1976]

I read an interview with ZAO and they are anti-Catholic. One member said something to the fact that Catholicism is closed minded and God is not with them he would be with us. I will never buy their music after i read that.

[DemonSlayer]

[quote name='TheOliverOrder88' date='Dec 24 2005, 06:03 AM']2) At the very bottom of their thank yous they ask for charities to a group of Benedictine Sisters.
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That's interesting though.

[frozencell]

Ferret is a decent label. Considering the play they and others from that label get, I think they are doing just fine.

I will have to look into the whole anti-Catholic thing.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

You need to read Fr. Amorth's books. Now you can't say "music is music" and "lyrics make a difference" at the same time. You contradict yourself. If "music is music" then I should morally be allowed to listen to pornographic rap and Satanic rock. Obviously, you didn't mean that.

"Now if you want to get into demonology and of the such. How would a demon even look at this without fear? How would a demon say this?"

Did I ever say that demons would say this? Those lyrics quote Holy Scripture, but Jesus warned of the fact that Satan may use Scripture, so yes they could say these things or look at them. That does not mean that they do not fear them, but they will do what it takes to destroy souls. Demons may appear as the Blessed Virgin Mary and make the scent of roses. They despise and fear Mary, but that doesn't mean they will not make use of what appears to be sacred and good to destroy souls. As to your question about thinking p&w music should be the only music. No I don't, I don't even listen to it. Now when you think that my thinking is "old school" you are entering a dangerous area. Marxism has infected all of society in one way or another and that is one. If you look at the Communist [i]Manifesto [/i], you will find that their goal was to separate the new generation (us) from their roots. Roots are old, the teachings of the Church are old. The Church is "old school." Our Church is supposed to be about advancing tradition; tradition is something based on the "old school." The "old school" had better educated Catholics who knew how to discern between act and intention and the weight of both. They realized that not all art is acceptable even in the profane/secular (outside of the Liturgy, dogma, etc.) world. You cannot say its just "artistic expression." If you say that then you must accept without resentment the "art" in a museum in New York (if it is still on display) that portrays Our Lady in a bikini smoking pot, or the image of Our Lord soaked in urine, or Southpark's episode mocking the statues of Our Lady that cry blood, depicting the Holy Father as saying, "She's just menstruating." I hope you see what I am getting at now. So my whole objective is to make you think further than just good lyrics and take all the elements into consideration. To finish I would like to ask my final question again, since you did not answer: Shouldn't we control our urge to be angry, as we would any other emotion, and to let it flow freely as it does in that music? Utimately, we will judge that music based on its fruits, will it bring souls to the Church and thus to salvation, and help them mature once they are within Her arms? Or will it give them an excuse to allow uncontrolled rage to seem good and "pointing in the right direction" (at demons and the legions of Hell), when in reality it should be stopped and overcome? The angels of heaven did not defeat the rebels with rage, it was with love and virtue. They do not praise God with anger, but with love and virtue.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

I forgot to respond to this:

"why not ban "Rock n Roll" because thats supposedly the "Satan's music". "

Now I am not saying whether to ban it or not, but I am saying again look deeper than "expression." With Rock came a ton of sin. You have to admit that. Is sin not the work of Satan?

Servus

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

Now I know you are going to say that sin already existed, but think of Rock as an accelerant. The Church knows that sin will continue until the end of time, but She doesn't sit there and just watch it increase. She fights it with vigor. That is why you heard the condemnation of Rock and other forms of "artistic expression." The Church was trying to limit and curb the rapid growth of sin and keep Her children from falling into sin so easily. Speaking of ZAO as just a band, regardless of musical style, I would like to make note of the fact of them at least being indifferent to "organized" religion. That proves them to unfortunately be our Enemy. Not that they cannot change, but we should not promote their work, or side with them. Do the angels of Heaven "hang out" in Hell or have tea with demons? I think not! Then why should you be indifferent to the enemies of our Church?!

Servus

[InCircles' brother]

tyler,

good points man. respectable thought and flat out reasoning and your bluntness has always been one of your traits i admire most. i agree that in heaven the angels dont sing this way at the feet of God and the saints and of course are Queen. i dont think that this was the intention of hardcore bands at least ones that have legitimate music and lyics... but lyrics are VERY important as for what you said that its the ONLY difference in the "christian hardcore" and "satainist's"... that is a BIG difference man. anyway to the point. my belief that the music is only raw emotion... negative emotions at that... hatred, abuses, pyhocologincal... you get the picture... and this is their outlet... im not saying its justifyed... just like the sex addict would say that masturbation is his/her outlet for thier "disorder" if you will. but you said that we control our lust... now by that im not sure what you mean by control... i now that for a long time what i called controlling lust was in reality surpressing it... saying that i wasnt feeling this desire or that.... now that correct thing to do with lust (in my opinion anyway) is to offer it humbly and unapologicaity to God... i mean dont make excuses for your disoders and inclinatinos to sin... simply admit it... yeah i feel this i feel that... i offer it up to You... and i believe that is what Zao was doing... offering their negativities... now im still not sure that everybody looks at that way... maybe i am the only one... what do you think...

[quote name='KnightoftheImmaculate1' date='Dec 27 2005, 12:50 PM']Now, I began to like hardcore a while ago, but have come to despise it.  Ask yourselves these question?  Does the end justify the means? Is this philosophy I just mentioned used in the "Christian" metal/hardcore scene?  Have you ever thought about the fact that the only difference in "Christian" hardcore and that used by the Satanists and consecrated to bring destruction to the lives of generations to come or to eliminate them entirely, is a lyrical difference? Have you thought about the fact that those who scream in the hardcore music sound like demons speaking through human beings?  Have you seriously read and thought about (if you have read it) Fr. Amorth's comments regarding this music scene in his books on Exorcism?  Then ask yourself if you would hand over Zao or any other hardcore bands' CD to the Pope, Christ's Vicar on earth, and not have to try to explain why so-called music you call Christian, is not Satanic?  Do you think that the Holy Mother of God approves? Do those in Heaven praise the Almighty Trinity with the screams of those angels who, out of pride, scorn the Throne and work to keep souls from it?  Are you, who as a member of the Church, Bride of Christ, reflecting the realities of Heaven to the world with such music? Do you look to Christ, scorned, abandoned, scourged, crowned with thorns, crucified, and mocked, telling him that your "praise" of Him there sounds like the demons of Hell, but it is truly the angelic chants of Heaven?  These questions are some of the many that helped me leave the scene.  I hope they help you and many others.  One last thought...it is true that at times we may have anger, but like any other emotion, are we to let it rage out of control as it does in that music, or are we to control it as we do lust?

Servus
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[InCircles' brother]

i wanted to add this to the part when i said "and i believe that is what Zao was doing"... coincidently waht Zao was offering... alot of people had in common... watching old concerts and seeing the crowd sream the lyrics pasionalty and sincererly (i think) i belive it was almost a type of healing... just like some people weep and weep as they repent... likewise some scream... im not saying its right. for me personally hardocre was merely a stage... and it helped me cope with raw emotions and after time i found other ways to express my emotions and channel negative energy... does that make sense? anyway i can look at hardcore and in a way understand it from the inside out cause i was in it and now im out and i see alot of positivenss in it... admitly there are negative affects to it... as like with anything worldly... there is that danger... its only here to help us to an extent its not meant to be the final goal of life on earth. what do you think man?

[TheOliverOrder88]

You make good points.

I guess I see your point.

But I just don't see the connection...

I don't think voice determines the wickedness or righteousness of a person's motives and influences. There are countless bands who are sincerely Christian, they just happen to make a different sound with their mouths. They believe what they're doing is God's call in their life.

I cannot throw away a whole genre just because they scream.

Oh sure with Rock came alot of sin. You can that about alot stuff, such as the internet. Yet, again this is music. Demons HATE music. Music lifts a human person's feelings. Rock (and I can say that with alot of music) can lift a person's feelings...can lift these feelings to God?

This is a uneducated thought.

I do plan on reading those books by the way...