Are Phatmassers Role Models

[Aloysius]

well now it's in my signature.

you have to realize the initial posts on that thread were done in the wee hours of the morning on open mic... so maybe I wasn't thinking precision and good advice to young phatmassers. late-night phatmass doesn't tend to be that serious... it wasn't until the next day (when usually threads I start at night have been banished to pages back because no one likes the late-night style) that it came back to forgive my unpleasant disposition in the butt.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 12 2005, 11:48 AM']Hmmm, I didn't notice you made that distinction in your opening post. In fact, I believe you said:
Did I miss the addendum "as long as your parents say it's OK"?
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I missed it too.

I believe most states allow underage drinking with parent [b]supervision[/b] anyway, not just approval.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Dec 12 2005, 01:54 PM']I missed it too.

I believe most states allow underage drinking with parent [b]supervision[/b] anyway, not just approval.
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That is definitely true. In Indiana you can't do it at all, even with parental suprevision.

Oddly enough, I've found I'm able to be a fully functioning adult even without the benefit of underage alcohol consumption. Must just have been a fluke.

[photosynthesis]

aside from all this underage drinking banter,

Being a "role model" is kind of a subjective thing to start with. While I think that most people who are tagged with flags do a pretty good job of repping the church, I think it's possible for a non-Catholic to be a good role model. I have a lot of family members who aren't Catholic but are still good, moral people. Good character and virtue are not dependent on being Catholic. But being Catholic and knowing what is moral and not moral certainly helps

We are also all sinners (that's why we need Jesus) and we all need to rely on the Divine Mercy. No one is ever a perfect role model all the time, but I'm sure there are people here, Catholic and non-Catholic, that do a better job of that than others.

[Aloysius]

In my state (PA) parents could be fined for that.

And my position was that parental approval, even if not directly supervised as the child gets older so long as he has been taught temperence, would not be wrong even if technically against the law as well.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 12 2005, 09:53 AM']Yes, well the appeals to emotionally charged sociological realities don't have the desired effect on me, because I blame the acute phenomenon of alcohol abuse in our society not on the substance of alcohol, but rather on the various cultural perversions which have long plagued this country, of which prohibitionism is both a symptom and cause.
I would only appeal to cultures with healthy attitudes and sensibilities regarding alcohol to prove this point. Historically Hebrew, Italian, Greek, Chinese, etc..

And I suppose an objective reading of my posts would reveal that I do not outright oppose alcohol related legislation. I simply oppose legislation that is invasive and oppressive of the family or religion and culture. But I've never condoned the illegal acquisition of alcohol by minors. That is the loophole in my position which I would say keeps me within the bounds of the law.
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i think that might be the best post so far... if you hadnt gained my respect before you definitely would have gained it with that.

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 12 2005, 10:49 AM']L_D, just for clarities sake, none of the comments I made were directed specifically to you -- I had Al in mind with what I said in my initial comment and several subsequent ones.

And my problem here isn't that we discuss the relative rightness or wrongness of underage drinking -- I'm all for opening up that topic. My issue is that Al was flaunting his disobedience to the civil law on a public forum in which he's in a leadership position.
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precisely.

[quote name='dUSt' date='Dec 12 2005, 11:54 AM']I missed it too.

I believe most states allow underage drinking with parent [b]supervision[/b] anyway, not just approval.
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as did i. and you believe right. and im glad to see you dont support the consumption of alcohol by minors not under parental supervision.


now about the original topic... i do not believe that Church Faithful tags are necessarily representative of much. i certainly do not believe that each person with a Church Faithful tag are positive role models for younger people and lurkers. in fact, sometimes with my uncharitableness within the debate table (and yes occasionally elsewhere), i am surprised that i myself was nominated for Church Faithful. i do believe that mods should strive to be the best examples they can be. they are the ones whom I would look to first. do i think those with church faithful tags should be held to a higher standard. most definitely. do i think thats possible? not really.

[photosynthesis]

I also wanted to stick up for Aloysius...

what I saw in the threads about underage drinking was a lot of "overage" people emphasizing strict adherence to the law, but underneath, I think some people were making fun of him because he's made himself an easy target.

There are a lot worse things out there than underage drinking. I've been living on a college campus for four years and I've seen the best of it, and I've seen the worst of it. I've seen how alcohol can loosen people up and help people relax, and I've seen how alcohol can land people in the hospital.

Did I drink when I was 18? Yeah, I did. Not only was my family OK with it, but they encouraged me to drink. Do I regret it? No, not really.

Do I follow the law to the letter all of the time? No. I've gotten two tickets this year, one for speeding and one for making a left turn when I wasn't supposed to (I didn't see the sign!). Do I regret doing those things? Yes, and I am trying to be a better driver.

I jaywalk sometimes and my family lights sparklers on the Fourth of July (illegal in NJ). I don't really see much of a problem with it.

If you guys want to debate the necessity of a drinking age, that's cool. But I think that certain "overage" Phatmassers debating with Aloysius are being a little holier-than-thou just because they're "older" and "wiser." What were you like when you were 18?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 12 2005, 02:36 PM']If you guys want to debate the necessity of a drinking age, that's cool.  But I think that certain "overage" Phatmassers debating with Aloysius are being a little holier-than-thou just because they're "older" and "wiser."  What were you like when you were 18?
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I had alcohol on two occasions prior to my 21st birthday. Once at a wedding, once with a few friends in an off-campus apartment.

I was pretty straight-laced when I was younger. I'm much less of a prig now. However, I'm not starting any threads lauding my non-priggishness and encouraging others to follow suit.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote]But I've never condoned the illegal acquisition of alcohol by minors. That is the loophole in my position which I would say keeps me within the bounds of the law.[/quote]

I'm totally confused -- had you mentioned this before? Because all this time it was my understanding that you were defending underage drinking -- which quite often involves illegal acquisition of alcohol by minors. In Aloysuis' case, how can someone drink underage in a dorm WITHOUT involving the aquisition of alcohol by minors? Most minors in a dorm do not get alcohol from their parents. I'm not sure where the consistency is there, or if I missed it.

Anyway I do think that anyone that comes on to phatmass and claims to be a faithful Catholic even if they haven't gotten a flag, should still set a good example. The same goes for Catholics everywhere, online and offline. If we claim Catholicity, we rep the Church 24/7/365. There is no "time off."

I really think that those that may oppose the drinking laws, justified or not, can have their say on a debate table without being a "bad example" necessarily -- though I do think that the jokes about people thinking that you're drunk all the time and all the drinks you are mixing isn't appropriate to be broadcasting in public where other teens and their parents may be surfing. With that being said though, I'm sure Al's not the only one who has once in a while posted something inappropriate for example-setting (sometimes I scratch my head and wonder about myself...) -- I think it's easy for ALL of us to lose sight that we are repping the church for people visiting the site from all around the world by habitually posting here.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 12 2005, 01:41 PM']I had alcohol on two occasions prior to my 21st birthday. Once at a wedding, once with a few friends in an off-campus apartment.

I was pretty straight-laced when I was younger. I'm much less of a prig now. However, I'm not starting any threads lauding my non-priggishness and encouraging others to follow suit.
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And that's the point.

People are right in the fact that even role models can fail at times. Good grief the amount of mistakes I made when I was 18, I'm genuinely surprised that I'm alive.

But when I was 18, I was also one of the leaders of my Catholic school. So I did not ever advertise the "youthful indiscretions" that I took part in.

Also when I was working with teenagers, I made it clear to my peer leadership team, if there was a topic they struggled with, they should not talk about it at youth functions. If they didn't talk about it, they wouldn't be looked down upon or judged. But I wanted role models who were authentic.

[Aloysius]

especially easy to loose site of this fact at like 3 in the morning in open mic.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 12 2005, 02:41 PM']I had alcohol on two occasions prior to my 21st birthday. Once at a wedding, once with a few friends in an off-campus apartment.

I was pretty straight-laced when I was younger. I'm much less of a prig now. However, I'm not starting any threads lauding my non-priggishness and encouraging others to follow suit.
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...what's a prig? people don't say "prig" where i come from :

even if you had alcohol only twice before you turned 21, you still had alcohol, you still broke the law and you're a criminal. Join the club

Even though I had my family's blessing regarding drinking, I still broke the law and I am a dirty criminal But I'm still better than my parents because I only drank wine when I was 18, whereas my mom and dad did a lot of cocaine in the 80's. There are a LOT worse things than underage drinking, and my parents did a lot of those things

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:36 PM']I also wanted to stick up for Aloysius...

what I saw in the threads about underage drinking was a lot of "overage" people emphasizing strict adherence to the law, but underneath, I think some people were making fun of him because he's made himself an easy target.

There are a lot worse things out there than underage drinking.  I've been living on a college campus for four years and I've seen the best of it, and I've seen the worst of it.  I've seen how alcohol can loosen people up and help people relax, and I've seen how alcohol can land people in the hospital.

Did I drink when I was 18?  Yeah, I did.  Not only was my family OK with it, but they encouraged me to drink.  Do I regret it?  No, not really.

Do I follow the law to the letter all of the time?  No.  I've gotten two tickets this year, one for speeding and one for making a left turn when I wasn't supposed to (I didn't see the sign!).  Do I regret doing those things?  Yes, and I am trying to be a better driver.

I jaywalk sometimes and my family lights sparklers on the Fourth of July (illegal in NJ).  I don't really see much of a problem with it.

If you guys want to debate the necessity of a drinking age, that's cool.  But I think that certain "overage" Phatmassers debating with Aloysius are being a little holier-than-thou just because they're "older" and "wiser."  What were you like when you were 18?
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what sojourner said.... and.... im underage as well. in fact i am the same age as aloysius. i also dont believe it fair of you to judge older (and some barely older) phatmassers for voicing their opinions about underage drinking. with aloysius flaunting his drunkenness (or as he might like to say - tipsiness) certain things are bound to be brought up by the opposing side, no matter the age. the debate table has no rules suggesting that the older and wiser should stay out of the business of the younger and stupider (not that im calling aloysius stupid - thats just generally the opposite phrase used). in fact, i think most would support the older and wiser coming in to share experience and opinion. or are they not allowed to do that when it comes to things we dont want to hear?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 12 2005, 02:48 PM']especially easy to loose site of this fact at like 3 in the morning in open mic.
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Especially when one has been drinking.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 12 2005, 12:49 PM']...what's a prig?  people don't say "prig" where i come from :

even if you had alcohol only twice before you turned 21, you still had alcohol, you still broke the law and you're a criminal.  Join the club

Even though I had my family's blessing regarding drinking, I still broke the law and I am a dirty criminal   But I'm still better than my parents because I only drank wine when I was 18, whereas my mom and dad did a lot of cocaine in the 80's.  There are a LOT worse things than underage drinking, and my parents did a lot of those things
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so as long i commit only venial sins whereas many of the people i know (maybe my parents) commit mortal sins... well thats okay and i shouldnt worry about it because they are less serious than what my parents did (or do)?

a lesser wrong is still a wrong.